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Free lending of books

by Laurent GUERBY Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 06:59:07 AM EST

Migeru was surprised a few days ago when I said some authors asked public libraries to respect the author right to stop free lending of books.

As everyone knows lending books is the worst kind of theft and if it's not stopped authors will starve to death and civilization will end.

On 31 march 2000, a petition organized by Jérôme Lindon (editor) requesting that public libraries respect the right of authors to stop free lending was signed by 288 authors and published in Liberation.

List follows.


Dr Jean-Marie Abgrall, Philippe Alexandre, Pierre Alferi, Denis Alland,
Madeleine Ambrière, Jacques-Pierre Amette, Jacques André, José Artur,
Pierre Assouline, Sylvain Auroux, Nicole Avril, André Balland, Francis
Balle, Jean-Claude Barreau, Christian de Bartillat, Christophe Bataille,
Azouz Begag, Pierre Bellemare, René Belletto, Raymond Bellour, Tahar Ben
Jelloun, Juliette Benzoni, Yves Berger, Calixthe Beyala, Joseph Bialot,
Roger Bichelberger, Jacques Bidet, Raphaële Billetdoux, Robert Bober, Yves
Bonnefoy, Henry Bonnier, Pierre Bonte, Huguette Bouchardeau, Raymond
Boudon, Daniel Boulanger, Philippe Bourdrel, Philippe Bouvard, Luc Boyer,
Rémi Brague, Michel Braudeau, Philippe Breton, Jean Breton, André
Brincourt, Pierre Brunel, Olivier Cadiot, Alain Caillé, Michel Callon,
Renaud Camus, Emmanuel Carrère, Jean-Claude Carrière, Michel del Castillo,
Maurice Caveing, Michel Cazenave, François Cérésa, Hervé de Charette,
Georges-Olivier Châteaureynaud, Pierre Chaunu, Malek Chebel, Monique
Chemillier-Gendreau, François Cheng, Mohamed Cherkaoui, Jacques Chessex,
Eric Chevillard, Marc Cholodenko, Georges-Emmanuel Clancier, Bernard
Clavel, Christine Clerc, Denis Clerc, François de Closets, Jean-François
Coatmeur, André Comte-Sponville, Alain Corbin, Pierre Cotet, Jean Cournut,
Paul-Marie Coûteaux, Jean-Claude Damamme, Jean Daniel, Xavier Darcos, Marie
Darrieussecq, Alain Decaux, Didier Decoin, Régine Deforges, Michel Deguy,
Claude Delarue, Jean Delumeau, Paul Denis, Michel Déon, Fanny Deschamps,
Dominique Desjeux, Pascal Dessaint, Jean Diwo, Geneviève Dormann,
Jacqueline Duchêne, Hortense Dufour, Jean-Pierre Dupuy, Jacques Duquesne,
Ilan Duran Cohen, Guillaume Dustan, Jean Dutourd, Jean Echenoz, Pr
Jean-Paul Escande, Dominique Fernandez, Alice Ferney, Dominique Fourcade,
Paul Fournel, Jean-Louis Fournier, Sarah Frydman, Christian Gailly,
Jean-Gabriel Ganascia, Louis Gardel, Pascal Gauchon, Claude Gauvard,
Michèle Gazier, Susan George, Jean-Pierre Giraudoux, Christian Giudicelli,
Jacques Godbout, Joëlle Goron, Henri Gougaud, Iegor Gran, Hélène
Gratiot-Alphandéry, Michel Grisolia, Benoîte Groult, Alain Grousset, Marc
Guillaume, Jean-Claude Guillebaud, Magdaléna Guirao-Jullien, Hervé Hamon,
Jean-Louis Harouel, Anne Henault, Claude Hervé, Eric Holder, Didier Houzel,
Nancy Huston, Claude Imbert, Roland Jaccard, Bertrand Jacquillat, Michel
Jarrety, Claude Jeancolas, Claude Jessua, Michel Jobert, Thierry Jonquet,
Alain Joxe, Charles Juliet, Marcel Jullian, Leslie Kaplan, Alain Kerjean,
Ahmadou Kourouma, Catherine Labrusse-Riou, Denis Lachaud, Philippe Lacoche,
Jean-Yves Lacoste, Luc Lang, Jacques Lanzmann, Patrick Lapeyre, Gilles
Lapouge, Michel Larneuil, Philippe Laruelle, Frédéric Laupies, Eric
Laurrent, Jean-Pierre Le Goff, Claude Le Guen, Charles Le Quintrec,
Brigitte Le Varlet, Serge Lebovici, Dominique Lecourt, Hélène Lenoir,
Pierre Lepape, Bernard-Henri Lévy, Mathieu Lindon, Alain Lipietz,
Jean-Louis Magnon, Jean Maisonneuve, Félicien Marceau, Pierre Marion,
Danielle Martinigol, Jean-François Mattei, Didier Maus, Laurent Mauvignier,
Sophie de Menthon, Pierre Mertens, Gerald Messadié, Philippe Meyer, Gaston
Mialaret, Alain de Mijolla, Raoul Mille, Richard Millet, Pierre Miquel,
Jacqueline Mirande, Patrick Modiano, Michel Mohrt, Martin Monestier, Louis
Monier, Guy Montagné, Thierry de Montbrial, Henri Morier, Pierre Moustiers,
Jacqueline Nadel, J.-D. Nasio, Marie NDiaye, Eric Neuhoff, Amélie Nothomb,
François Nourissier, Christine Orban, Christian Oster, Catherine Paysan,
Pascal Perrineau, Thierry Pfister, Jean Piat, Piem, Philippe Pignarre,
Plantu, Paco Porter, Gilbert Prouteau, Michel Ragon, Jean-Bernard Raimond,
Maurice Rajfsus, Patrick Rambaud, Jean Raspail, Xavier Raufer, Yves Ravey,
Hubert Reeves, Alain Renaut, Jean-François Revel, Jean-Michel Rey,
Dominique Reynie, Yasmina Réza, Serge Rezvani Maurice Rheims, Stéphane
Rials, Michel Rio, Alain Robbe-Grillet, Denis Roche, Maxime Rodinson, Jacob
Rogozinski, Olivier Rolin, Marie Rouanet, Jean Rouaud, Pascale Roze,
Francis Ryck, Robert Sabatier, Paule Salomon, Pierre Sansot, Claude
Sarraute, John Ralston Saul, Eugène Savitzkaya, Joël Schmidt, Marcel
Schneider, Jacques Serena, Lucien Sfez, Christian Signol, Claude Simon,
Christiane Singer, Gilbert Sinoué, Robert Solé, Didier Souiller, Dominique
Sourdel, Janine Sourdel, André Stil, Benjamin Stora, Valentina Supino
Vitterbo, Alain Surget, Gérard Szwec, Maud Tabachnik, Irène Tamba, Philippe
Tesson, Jean-Philippe Toussaint, Henri Troyat, Didier Truchet, Zoé Valdés,
Jean-Pierre Vernant, Michel Vinaver, Bertrand Visage, Frédéric Vitoux,
Antoine Volodine, Michel Vovelle, Henriette Walter, Daniel Widlocher, Elie
Wiesel, Annette Wieviorka, Martin Winckler, Michel Winock, Francis Wolff,
Julie Wolkenstein, Dominique Wolton, Yves-Charles Zarka, Jean Ziegler,
Michel Zink

Source.

A bit more context on art libre archives.

Display:
I am happy to report that our small town of 19,000 boasts a fantastic modern library with a large kid's section and a reading room with almost all magazines published in Finland, and many foreign ones also. The reading room is well used, and I pop in there quite a lot myself to check out Finnish papers.

We also have a once week visit from a mobile library that stops 50 metres away.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 07:22:50 AM EST
Why don't you copy or link to what these authors actually signed as a petition? You say it's "stop free lending", but I can't find the text in any of your sources. You publish a list of signatories and we have your word for it they wanted to stop people borrowing books from libraries. That's all?

I note it's from 2000. What has happened since?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 07:23:42 AM EST
I believe this is a symbolic thing, related to intellectual property and filesharing.

The analogy is flawed.  Libraries do not give copies of books away.  You have to give them back.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 07:37:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Author lobbies have also threatened libraries (and reprographics stores) into restricting the ability to photocopy books.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 07:40:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Source? Link?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 07:42:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Searching. But I have suffered that when I was a college student in Spain.

Another thing that pisses me off is when the holders of copyright allow books to go out of print and still insist that photocopying it is a crime.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 07:55:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
here (blog post in Spanish) you can find more information about this.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 08:01:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
holders of copyright allow books to go out of print and still insist that photocopying it is a crime.

The holder of copyright is the author. The author never takes the decision that the book should go out of print. That's the publishing house.

Both you and Laurent seem to be behind by some years. The question of not-for-resale photocopying has been settled by a system where academic institutions etc pay annual rights that are redistributed to authors and publishers. (Though I can't answer for Spain).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 08:35:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Same in Finland.

We also have Kopiosto Copyright organization for authors, publishers and performing artists.

Teosto administers music publishing rights
Gramex administers mechanical music rights

There is a levy on sales of blank media that is used to fund all sorts of creative projects in different areas, through, for example AVEK which funds all kind of movie and TV start ups.

This is separate from the Finnish Film Foundation, which is state-funded: http://www.ses.fi/en/

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 09:46:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The question of not-for-resale photocopying has been settled by a system where academic institutions etc pay annual rights that are redistributed to authors and publishers.

You're right. See the presentation of the law in my comment below

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 10:23:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't why you include "Laurent" here.

Do you have a quote of something specific I wrote?

I'd appreciate it, thanks.

FYI, in France for out of print books the author has the right to ask the publisher to print again within a delay or to get his full rights back.

But that's not the issue with out of print books: it's just that nobody knows who is the rightholder in most cases and that leads to orphan works and effective destruction of most of human book culture.

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 10:25:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're included because you're quoting from 2000, while you don't appear to know what has happened since. So I said you too didn't seem up to date.

As for the rights of authors concerning out-of-print books, I'm aware, thanks. The point is that it's not authors who are responsible for the situation re out-of-print books (which Migeru implied by saying "copyright holders".)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 10:44:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well the petition happened in 2000, so I quote writings from 2000 to answer Migeru question about which authors could say that lending book for free in public library is a crime.

How can that relate to me not being up to date to what happened after 2000?

I'm curious.

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 01:21:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So now these authors say it's a crime to lend books?

Back that up.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 01:24:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
See...  That's where I thought he was going with this.

It's absurd.  For the reasons I have laid out.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 01:31:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Free lending of books is now a crime in France, you have to pay the authors for lending.

How do I miss something huge?

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 02:23:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you really saying authors think there's an analogy?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 07:44:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no idea what they think.  You'd have to ask them.  What I know is that Laurent posts a lot about intellectual property, and that the analogy is implied in his introduction to this diary.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 07:58:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Specifically, in the second sentence.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 07:59:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't need to ask them. Of course authors of books don't think there's any kind of analogy with filesharing. This is about library lending of hard copies, and photocopying of same.

If Laurent thinks there's an analogy, we'll have to ask him ;).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 08:25:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know what it is like in Europe, but here we distinguish between lending books to the public and producing copies of materials not in the public domain to be given away freely.  One is legal, one is not.  

Also, lending is not that same as giving away.  And unlike files and other media, books are not easily replicated.  Have you ever tried to photocopy an entire book?  It would be cheaper to buy it it.  So there is no real danger of bootlegging.

The only complaint is that a person could read (as opposed to own) it for free instead of having to buy it first.  All moral and academic concerns about access to knowledge aside, this is still a stupid complaint, as someone at some point, be it an individual, a community or an institution, DID buy the hardcopy.  So long as it is not being replicated and copies distributed, once that hard copy is sold, who has access to that hard copy is up to the owner of it, not the author.

Seems the fight they want to pick is with copyright laws and those who abuse them and perhaps with their publishers ... not libraries.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 11:50:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, lending is not that same as giving away.  And unlike files and other media, books are not easily replicated.  Have you ever tried to photocopy an entire book?  It would be cheaper to buy it it.  So there is no real danger of bootlegging.

Excapt for textbooks, which are overpriced pieces of crap with a captive market.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 12:00:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
True.  But I don't think they are the ones mewing about losing profits because libraries lend their books...  


"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 12:13:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, the way they get around it is to release a new edition of the book every year or two.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 12:21:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Precisely.  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 12:27:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They were concerned about multiple photocopying, not lending. The issue (at least in a number of European countries) is now settled by an annual lump payment, doubled by the State, that is redistributed to publishers and authors.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 12:30:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If that is indeed the case, this is the most delibrerately misleading diary -and topic- I have ever seen here.

Free lending of books
by Laurent GUERBY

Migeru was surprised a few days ago when I said some authors asked public libraries to respect the author right to stop free lending of books.

As everyone knows lending books is the worst kind of theft and if it's not stopped authors will starve to death and civilization will end.

On 31 march 2000, a petition organized by Jérôme Lindon (editor) requesting that public libraries respect the right of authors to stop free lending was signed by 288 authors and published in Liberation.

Ital. mine.

Photocopying is not mentioned once.  Nor does it have anything to do with lending books or libraries.  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 12:36:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The way the authors found of solving the multiple photocopy problem was to attack the libraries. I lived through this as a college student.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 12:40:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you show how "the authors" did this? Or was it "the publishers"?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 12:49:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was the SGAE (authors). They are universally hated, including by a lot of small artists (the SGAE represents all authors but voting rights are based on royalty income and exclude the bottom 90% of all royalty-earning artists). If you can read enough Spanish I suggest a tour of http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=SGAE+site%3Aescolar.net

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 12:54:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I mentioned mutiple photocopying with respect to academic works and text books, since you and Migeru were discussing that.

But I can't believe you have read the discussion thread fully?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 12:54:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"But I can't believe you have read the discussion thread fully?"

Why?  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 01:00:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The petition text AFAIK is not available on the net anymore, my wording derives from extracts of it published in responses to the petition (and from the EU directive from 1992 IIRC that gives the authors such right).

Look for "jerome lindon 288" in google.fr you'll find some.

Alternative: pay for access to liberation web archive (same search as google on liberation.fr will give you the article "pay for" link, it is in the 20000331 edition) or go to ... a public library with liberation paper archive :).

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 09:43:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yup. My point is that your diary's a bit on the light side if you're sending us to do all that ;)

My recollection is that there was a fair amount of debate  at the time between French authors over what (weak) threats they might make to get the government moving on a system of remuneration. Some waved around the right to refuse sales to libraries, others spoke of pay-to-borrow, but most (including the Société française des gens de lettres (SGDL), which I belong to) insisted on both free library lending and the right to private copy.

Here's an extract from a letter I received from the SGDL, dated 26 April 2000:


Voici les raisons principales qui nous ont incités à relancer le débat sur une question que les pouvoirs publics étudient depuis plusieurs années, sans résultat.

- Le droit de prêt est inscrit dans la loi française depuis 1957; il a été confirmé par une directive européenne de 1992. Les droits des auteurs ne sont pas assez nombreux, ni les auteurs assez riches, pour que nous en négligions un seul.

Here are the reasons that led us to get the debate moving again on a question that the public authorities have been studying for several years, with no result.

- the right to lend (books) has been written into French law since 1957; it was confirmed by a European directive in 1992. Authors' rights are too few, and authors are not rich enough, for us to neglect a single one.

- Le nombre de volumes empruntés a triplé en vingt ans, passant de 50 à 154 million, tandis que le nombre de voumes vendus restait stable, aux environs de 300 millions, et que la moyenne des exemplaires vendus par titre passait de 14 000 à 8 000.

- the number of volumes borrowed has tripled in twenty years, from 50 to 154 million, while sales remained stable at around 300 million volumes, and the average number of copies sold per title dropped from 14,000 to 8,000.

A handful of authors make big money. Most do not, and put in a great deal of work for little return. Talking of them as IP abusers or a "lobby" is way over the top. In this case, the point was to get a rational system for lending and photocopying together, that recognized the growth of both practices, and offered (some) return to authors.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 10:38:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there no French equivalent of Public Lending Rights?

Here in the UK, authors get a small sum
(5.98 pence per loan last year) each time their book is borrowed.

by Sassafras on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 01:08:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Lending_Right

Public Lending Right program compensates authors for the potential loss of sales from their works being available in public libraries.

Fifteen countries have a PLR program, and others are considering adopting one. Canada, the United Kingdom, all the Scandinavian countries, Germany, Austria, Belgium, the Netherlands, Israel, Australia, and New Zealand currently have PLR prgrams. There is ongoing debate in France and the United States about implementing one. There is also a move towards having a Europe-wide PLR program administered by the EU.]

Different countries also have differing eligibility criteria. In most nations only published works are accepted, government publications are rarely counted, nor are bibliographies or dictionaries. Some PLR services are mandated solely to fund literary works of fiction, and some such as Norway, have a sliding scale paying far less to non-fiction works. Many nations also exclude scholarly and academic texts.

The PLR directive has met with resistance from the side of the International Federation of Library Associations IFLA. IFLA has stated that the principles of 'lending right' can jeopardize free access to the services of publicly accessible libraries, which is the citizen's human right.[2]. The PLR directive and its implementation in public libraries is rejected by a number of European authors, including Nobelists Dario Fo and José Saramago. [3]


"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 01:16:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I should add that if I seem obstinate it it is not that I haven't been following these threads closely.  It is that, being an American, the idea of giving royalties to authors when their books are checked out is, ahem, completely foreign to me, and somewhat shocking.  And also because as a librarian, I'm an advocate for public access to books not for the paychecks of authors.  And as a former bookseller, I have very little sympathy for the publishers and the "bad literature industrial complex." :) And as an environmentalist, it's just better for the planet if we share books instead of demanding that if people want to read something they should get their own copy.


"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 01:39:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[snark]Aren't books an excellent way to store carbon out of the atmosphere ? :)

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:40:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some inks are not that good for the environment (but may be technology has improved).
by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:46:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry for the terse diary but I wrote it during my lunch pause :).

Anyway, you're mixing issues here afew.

Photocopying was not the issue in 2000, the law from
3 janvier 1995 with 14 avril 1995 decree solved that issue five years before. Payments were collected by SEAM (Société des Éditeurs et des Auteurs de Musique) and CFC (Centre Français d'exploitation du droit de Copie) in 1996 and 1997 IIRC.

The question in 2000 was free lending and no longer photocopying.

As for data about lending, don't forget the number of out of print books you can find only at your library is growing strongly so you have to correct for that (and for more efficient second hand market too).

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 01:48:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That I have not heard of any of these authors shows both that I am ignorant and that they badly need to be in public libraries. which are afterall the biggest purchasers of books and a place where ignoramussi like me can be introduced to these authors.

And I pay for those books with my tax money already, so why should i have to pay twice?

by PeWi on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 07:47:46 AM EST
Nice to see you, PeWi.

  1. Who says your tax money pays enough?

  2. Who's telling you you have to pay twice? (In other words, that you should pay every time you borrow a library book?)

  3. Why do you bother borrowing books if you have such a dim view of authors? ;)
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 07:52:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
yes, it was a long dry spell for me, and I am slowly getting back into posting, (not promising much but here I am)

In Germany at least you are paying a registration/ admin fee - sometimes annually, when you register and here in GB you are also charged if you are lending a DVD, which I think was demanded by the Video stores.
So, that made me think, they would want to charge for it everytime...

by PeWi on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 07:57:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it's good to see you back.

There is often a registration fee in libraries, but generally to contribute to administrative costs. Personally, I think there shouldn't be a fee paid by individual citizens at all.

The question, back in the '90s, was that, while overall sales of books and overall percentage of royalties paid to authors were decreasing, library lending and photocopying were increasing. Authors asked governments to look into a system of remuneration. Governments took their time. Authors made noises about their right to refuse the sale of their works to libraries. (It was a kind of weedy strike threat). Governments finally got down to work.

The system in France now is that the State contributes one half, and libraries / photocopying institutions (universities, etc) the other, into a fund that remunerates authors for lending/photocopying. A similar system operates in the UK, and, I think, in Germany.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 08:23:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also in Spain there is a similar system, managed by CEDRO (Spanish Centre for Reprographic Rights).

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 08:36:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
actually I do have heard of some of them, but not quite as writers like: Elie Wiesel or Jean Piat
by PeWi on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 07:53:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Elie Wiesel.  Just saw his name at the bottom.  I'd have a difficult time believing he doesn't want his works in lending libraries on principle.  There must be a whole lot more to this story.  Or he's lost his mind...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 11:24:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course there's a lot more to this story. Read my comments for an inkling.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 11:31:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One suspects their struggle to profit from their works may have more to do with the quality of these works and less to do with the fact that they may be borrowed from a library...  

Then again, being poor writers and available at libraries doesn't seem to affect the success of most of those authors on the NYT Bestsellers list.

 

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 10:47:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree (for once ;-) ) with afew: to understand what is the purpose of this diary, we need to know what the petition was about, in which context it took place and what happened since 2000.

I am very much surprised when I look at the list you published: among the great diversity of authors (some are TV anchors who probably didn't write their books themselves) some of them are clearly progressive people (including Susan George, vice-president of ATTAC!) and I would not suspect these ones to want the end of free-lending libraries.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 09:10:25 AM EST
Actually, the art libre link contains an article on the subject from Lyon Capitale. It's pretty good on context.

From the article:
288 auteurs (..) revendiquent leur droit exclusif d'autoriser ou d'interdire la location ou le prêt des livres dont ils sont les auteurs, droit inscrit dans la loi française et réaffirmé dans une directive européenne.
Mais devant la multiplication des actes de prêt en bibliothèque et la crise générale que traverse le livre, certains demandent désormais que le prêt de leurs oeuvres soit rétribué.
Cette pétition réclame que le ministre de la Culture statue sur le droit des auteurs et leur rémunération, et porte sur la place publique le débat sur le prêt payant
La crise se cristallise sur quelques chiffres frappants. De 1980 à 1998, le nombre d'ouvrages empruntés en bibliothèque est passé de 59,3 millions à 145,8 millions. (...) Dans le même temps, les ventes de livres stagnent à 300 millions d'unités chaque année, soit à peine le double des titres empruntés. Pour certains éditeurs et libraires, c'est la preuve d'une concurrence déloyale, d'un manque à gagner. La corrélation est invérifiable bien que douteuse : en assurant la promotion des livres, les bibliothèques favorisent la circulation de l'écrit, et, à terme, encouragent certainement le réflexe d'achat.
Jérôme Lindon des éditions de Minuit propose carrément un prix prohibitif de 5 F par emprunt.
Alors, faut-il demander aux bibliothèques, à l'État ou aux collectivités de s'acquitter à la place du lecteur du prix du prêt ? Cela paraît difficile dans un contexte de restriction budgétaire.
Plus raisonnable, le rapport Borzeix, commandé par le gouvernement en 1997, préconise le paiement d'une somme forfaitaire de 10 à 20 francs de droit de prêt par an, à charge de l'usager de plus 18 ans.

Though the exact wording of the petition isn't quoted anywhere, as far as I can tell.

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 09:37:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I like this:

La corrélation est invérifiable bien que douteuse : en assurant la promotion des livres, les bibliothèques favorisent la circulation de l'écrit, et, à terme, encouragent certainement le réflexe d'achat.

So the correlation is unverifiable, but the contrary is certain!

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 09:59:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the exact wording of the petition isn't quoted anywhere

That's what I meant.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 10:47:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

[...] to want the end of free-lending libraries.

Well they did more than wanting since they got it, libraries have to pay for lending meaning it's not free anymore.

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 01:52:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Rémunération au titre du prêt en bibliothèque - Wikipédia

La loi française no 2003-517 du 18 juin 2003 relative à la rémunération au titre du prêt en bibliothèque et renforçant la protection sociale des auteurs modifie le code de la propriété intellectuelle.

Désormais, lorsqu'une oeuvre a fait l'objet d'un contrat d'édition en vue de sa publication et de sa diffusion sous forme de livre, l'auteur ne peut s'opposer au prêt d'exemplaires de cette édition par une bibliothèque accueillant du public. Ce prêt ouvre droit à rémunération au profit de l'auteur, rémunération perçue par une ou plusieurs des sociétés de perception et de répartition des droits agréées à cet effet par le ministre chargé de la culture.

Cette rémunération comprend deux parts :

    la première part, à la charge de l'État, est assise sur une contribution forfaitaire par usager inscrit dans les bibliothèques accueillant du public pour le prêt, à l'exception des bibliothèques scolaires ; la seconde part est de 6 % du prix public de vente hors taxes des livres achetés, pour leurs bibliothèques accueillant du public pour le prêt, par les collectivités locales (bibliothèques municipales, bibliothèques départementales de prêt...) et les bibliothèques universitaires, et est versée par les libraires.

La rémunération au titre du prêt en bibliothèque est répartie comme suit :

    une première part est répartie à parts égales entre les auteurs et leurs éditeurs à raison du nombre d'exemplaires des livres achetés chaque année par les bibliothèques, sur la base des informations communiquées par les bibliothèques et les libraires ; une seconde part, qui ne peut excéder la moitié du total, est affectée à la prise en charge d'une fraction des cotisations dues au titre de la retraite complémentaire par les auteurs.

La loi Lang relative au prix du livre est également modifiée de manière à plafonner à 9 % le montant maximal des rabais consentis par les libraires aux bibliothèques.

Les auteurs et éditeurs recevront en 2007 les premiers versements, correspondant aux droits pour les années 2003 et 2004. Pour l'année 2005, la somme à reverser est évaluée à 19,7 millions d'euros



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 10:17:16 AM EST
I'm sorry to have to ask, but is this a joke?


"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 10:36:36 AM EST
I am writer but I don't mind when libraries buy my books and lend them for free.
Position of these authors is hardly justified. If they want eternal copyright public would be right to investigate whether they used or not any stock characters, any others' research, borrowed ideas and so on and whether they used any library at least once to write their books.
We live not in cave age, there were many authors before us and many will come after. Libraries exist to disseminate knowledge, it's their primary function and authors benefit from their existence as well.
by FarEasterner on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 11:26:46 AM EST
http://www.cybuild.com/~kat/stallman-ndk-2005/index.html


[...]
So we should reduce copyright power in all these different dimensions - we should reduce how long it lasts, and we should reduce how broad the power is. As for the length of time one thing we can see is that the publication cycle is getting faster and faster. Nowerdays in the US the typical book is remaindered within two years and it is out of print within three years.. so I don't believe that many decades of copyright can be necessary. Let's reduce copyright to last for 10 years starting from the date of publication. That should be plenty. Now that might be more than necessary and if so a few years later we can see if we want to reduce it further. But I think that 10 years is a good first step. It's still quite a bit longer than the publication period. This proposal, however, is controversial. Once I was sitting in a panel with some authors and I made this proposal and the award-winning author sitting next to me said, "Ten years is impossible, intolerable.. Anything more than five years is outrageous!". Now, you might be surprised that an author would say that. I was surprised. I assumed, naively, that authors were in favor of longer copyright. But no! You see it turns out that the same publishers who are taking away our freedom in the name of those authors and artists are grinding those same authors and artists into the ground with their heals all the time! This author had a clause in his contract, which is more of a standard, in the US at least, that when the book goes out of print the rights revert to him and he can use the book as he wants, but as often happens the publisher had let the book effectively go out of print but was refusing to admit it, refusing to recognize it. And as result he was not allowed to use his own book as he wanted to and it wasn't available. He wanted people at least to be able to read his book.
[...]
by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 02:04:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Note the sublety: the petition is to give authors a right to opt out of the state-retributed,  lump sum system (and instead put their work in a pay-per-borrowing system for which french public library are incidentally not geared).

It does not mean that they want the present system repelled altogether (and actually I see quite a number of names in the signatory who are big sellers, and certainly profit will from the present system, and also some politicians who put it in place ...)

I understand the logic in this "freedom of choice for authors" petition. I have developed some software myself, some open source, some closed source, some commercial, some academic (and combinations: copyrighted disclosed source, etc...)

It is possible to imagine perfectly justifiable business or ethics cases for all combinations, and therefore I believe it is a good thing for software developers to have the choice of the licence they will use.

This is in "sort of" the same thing, but for literature.

Pierre

by Pierre on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 11:27:55 AM EST
It's not quite that. The state-and-library-financed system was introduced after this petition, which was part of a campaign to get the government to organize something of the kind.

If you look at the text Melanchthon quotes, the 2003 law specifically says authors cannot refuse library lending of their works. In return for which they receive remuneration (on a pro rata basis, so, as you rightly surmise, the big names get more).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 11:41:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, so you mean they were not as benevolent as they appear because they had no revenue of any kind as of the date this was written. I'm not shocked by the existence or a PLR system. The "Licence Globale" proposal is quite similar also.

It's quite normal in that any work deserves payment, and access to books through lending/buying should be made equivalent for the writer. So I don't get Laurent's original point: is it plain IP-anarchism, "property is theft" style ?

The fact that public library make the payment on the state budget rather than by charging fees to readers is a nice redistribution/equal-access thing. The formula for dispatching the money to the authors may be quite another dirty power struggle.


Pierre

by Pierre on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 04:14:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
SO, if I lend my books to a friend, do I have to pay a canon?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 04:43:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From what I read, yes if the law is rigidly applied, because it seems rigidly written. But again, scale does matter (see my other comment).

On a side note, France has a tax on blank audio tapes, CDs, DVDs, hard drives, etc... "taxe de copie privée", which covers the prejudice of you copying a CD for your neighbour. The "licence globale" would be a fully self-consistent extention of this decades-old system. But the majors want to renege on this right, yet still keep the old tax in place ! (have it both ways and screw us)

Pierre

by Pierre on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:07:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Technically the tax is there for the prejudice of you copying a CD for ... you. Copying for your neighbour is not covered by copie privee (you can display it to family and friends but copy is only for yourself).

Licence Globale and tax on blank media are equivalent in my view (indirect financing), the problem is the implementation of the repartition of the current tax which is to say the least opaque (see cour des comptes regular mentions) and probably quite unjust.

Not to mention it became a weapon against politicians in the hand of SACEM: if you don't vote for us, you don't get copie privee money for your city music festival.

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:40:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From what I read, yes if the law is rigidly applied, because it seems rigidly written.

One of my biggest beefs with the way we run our society is selective enforcement. If all laws were enforced life would grind to a halt, which means the laws are absurd. But, in addition, if they're really out to get you they can get you on a multitude of normally unenforced small civil (an possibly criminal) violations. Which means the potential for totalitarian repression is already there.

As an example, a friend of mine was once being questioned by a police officer and it turned out he has a tube ticket that someone else had bought for him. As tube tickets are "nontransferable" the ticket was confiscated. Just an example of the kind of nonsense we could be exposed to if teh authorities wanted to make our life impossible.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 09:21:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, that's not true. Under the French law, only libraries have to pay the authors  (see the text of the law).

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 07:04:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can I set up a "private library"? If I lend my books to my friends and neighbours on a large scale and keep track of who's borrowed which book, at which point do I become a library?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 08:30:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is getting interesting, because I know of such things: my late grand parents used to be member of a "bibliothèque tournante", that is a private library with no physical premises, where members pass books to each others in turn, directly (also a wish list is circulated, etc... glowria reinvented this model on a larger scale for DVD's with a centralized billing system)

It was all run by +75 year old retirees, but it's probably still runnning today with fewer 85+ retirees. And there must be more nation wide.

Clearly, these people would have to pay under the present legislation, which I'm pretty sure they don't. They're putting money in for buying new books, but probably they would have to set up an association with accounts etc to comply. Lots more hurdles. And I have no idea actually whether the amount required by law would be "reasonable" considering the scale of the library.

Pierre

by Pierre on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 08:46:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A few years ago, when VCRs were introduced in Spain, neighbours associations (comunidades de vecinos) would set up "community video", which was a closed-circuit TV system covering a single block of flats and showing films. There was a massive crackdown.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 08:54:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Clearly, these people would have to pay under the present legislation

Could you back up your claim?

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 09:06:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
as you pointed out:

Désormais, lorsqu'une oeuvre a fait l'objet d'un contrat d'édition en vue de sa publication et de sa diffusion sous forme de livre, l'auteur ne peut s'opposer au prêt d'exemplaires de cette édition par une bibliothèque accueillant du public. Ce prêt ouvre droit à rémunération au profit de l'auteur

Are you asking whether the "library" should be considered as "accueillant du public" ?

  • If yes, then it must pay.
  • If not, then it cannot argue of the law to lend the book without express authorization of the author (he could then refuse to lend, that's what is said right ?)

I think it would be the "jurisprudence" to decide in which of either case the system goes. But anyway, no free lending here.

Pierre
by Pierre on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 09:26:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the second case it's private lending, which is, as far as I know, not forbidden.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 09:56:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"It's quite normal in that any work deserves payment,"
yes, it is ...
"and access to books through lending/buying should be made equivalent for the writer."
this does not follow ...

Break it down.  The author creates a product. The author wants to sell the product.  Someone buys the product.  The author is paid.  Why shouldn't the transaction end there?  
Under what other circumstances can you sell a product and force someone not to lend it to someone else?  I'm not talking about reproducing it.  I'm talking about providing access to it.  Would automakers have a valid complaint that carpooling is a crime because they lose money when people share cars?  If I buy a park bench and donate it to the public park, should the benchmaker be paid each time someone sits on it?  

What about used books?  Should authors expect to be paid when a copy of their book is sold to a 3rd party?  

Of course not.  Because once you purchase something, you have the right to sell it, lend it, display it, share it.  People would make more money if there were laws against such things.  But copyright doesn't protect against eternal access, it protects against replication.  And the tradeoff of capitalism is that you can profit from selling something but you lose control over it once it is sold.  What these authors are mad at is not anarcho-intellectual property theories or marxist socialism or lending libraries, but capitalism itself.  It sucks to be an artist in this system.   They can either change the system or their jobs.  But they can't control who gets to see their work once they put it out there in the world...  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 04:43:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The existence of instituted lending system creates an obvious opportunity to arbitrage between buying a hardcopy of the book when it is released, and lending it 6 months later at the library.

This changes the market place a lot more than the examples you give. The difference in convenience between owned and shared cars, between a public bench and a private one in my garden, are much greater than between a book that you read, whether it's your own or the library's.

Pierre

by Pierre on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:04:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"The existence of instituted lending system creates an obvious opportunity to arbitrage between buying a hardcopy of the book when it is released, and lending it 6 months later at the library.
This changes the market place a lot more than the examples you give."

I am not good with numbers, statistics, but the history of public libraries pretty much parallels that of mass market publishing.  Before that it was scholarship, private libraries and privately commissioned work, etc.

The "market" for the mass public consumption of books has evolved, but has basically always to accommodate for the existence of either reprinters (before copyright) or public libraries (thereafter).  It would be shocking to me if the publishers did not factor it in when trying to make a profit.  I understand your point, which is where is the incentive to buy when you can have it for free?  But 1) the books lent are bought, and 2) the borrower does not get to have the book, but to access it for set amount of time.  (For that matter, you can go to a bookstore and read the book there for free...)  And considering most libraries have at most 2 copies of new releases, the supply & demand factor still rests mostly in the marketplace.  And if a book does not sell well initially, a publisher is going to slash production and stores will slash prices anyway.  You'll be lucky to have as many copies on the bookstore shelves as on the library shelves.  But that's not the fault of the library.  In fact, without the library, these authors would often have no other means of distribution...  

You also have not addressed the way personal lending and institutionalized resale of books figures into your Utopian vision of royalties-per-read v. royalties-per-initial-sale.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:47:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"The existence of instituted lending system creates an obvious opportunity to arbitrage between buying a hardcopy of the book when it is released, and lending it 6 months later at the library.
This changes the market place a lot more than the examples you give."

Books are pulped after two or three months these days, which pretty much makes it a necessity to have libraries. Assuming, that is, that diffusion of the work is among the important purposes of publication.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:51:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no utopian vision of royalties-per-read

Note that in France, the price of a book is uniformly set at publishing and cannot be slashed (by law) unless it's reprinted in a cheaper format, which is not the way to recoup a failed launch !

Not that in the swap-resale pattern, the publisher is only paid once, like with the library. And this gives the same convenience (to some readers...) of not cluttering your home with the books once read.

I think publishers are trying to factor all this in, and they just have a shrinking bottomline, because books are under increasing pressure from other forms of entertainment (sadly, the less neuron-intensive forms). So basically, only best sellers keep the book business afloat. So they want them out of free lending. Pretty much like the music majors, OK.

But still, I think, that it remains every author's choice, if he is clearly in the commercial/entertainment publishing business, to decide the way he's gonna charge for access to his work.

Pierre

by Pierre on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 06:24:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I have no utopian vision of royalties-per-read

The Right to Read: A Dystopian Short Story by Richard Stallman

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html

All the recent laws have pushed such a system, I wonder where it will stop :).

For "prix unique du libre", interestingly Jérôme Lindon was one of the main promoter of the law.

In the current context big book editors in France have top of the line ultra-modern printing factories and can push books as needed to bookstores so I believe the price cutting / failed launch issue is far less relevant (and BTW those factories destroy an astonishing number of book copies for paper reuse too).

For the record, I don't believe authors have much choice for "charging model" in the current system.

by Laurent GUERBY on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 06:42:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If they stick with big publishing houses, they have no choice on many details, but then if they're commercial, they will want precisely the kind of arrangements that those big houses make.

And now they can of course publish online. But it is quite the other extreme, and there is no room for an intermediate path today, because big publishers practically lock anything hardcopy. I agree this is far from ideal.

Pierre

by Pierre on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 07:31:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How about print-on-demand?

The power of the publishers comes not from a monopoly on printing, but on distribution.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 08:26:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure the economics of print on demand are so good when you're not asking for increments of 10 thousand copies. Which is a killer for an independant author (I still expect that would mean an entry ticket of 10 thousand euros). And then you need to arrange distribution with enough book shop to sell 10k copies, which is probably also impossible without the major publishers.

Pierre
by Pierre on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 08:37:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For software book authors, O'Reilly now does simultaneous free electronic / paper for money publishing (I believe I pointed out recent experiments results on ET a few days ago).
by Laurent GUERBY on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 08:36:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On a side note, I am not a great fan of Stallman extremists stance on IP, however great the quality of the software he wrote.

And for the record, I disagree with the changes made recently to patent legislations, not because I am against the patenting of software per se (which was perfectly doable in previous laws: patent the algorithm, copyright the source), but because it was pushed by BSA and the likes, not to improve protection of their IP (which was fine), but just to give them a legal backing for purely predatory and intimidation practices against new market entrants.

I also disagree with most patents on DNA, not because I think it is unethical by principle, but simply because in most instances the patent authorities fail to check the basic criteria of a true invention: a new creation. DNA that is simply sequenced from an existing creature is not a new creation, and cannot be patented, full stop. The original parts of the DNA of a chimaera or GMO, where gene promoters had to be tweaked to enable expression, etc.. must be patented to protect biotech companies (and they are original so this shouldn't require any new patent law, it simply requires that staff at the patent office have some knowledge of science - it seems like they have some 30 years to catch up, and big money isn't to intent on retraining them).

Pierre

by Pierre on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 07:41:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree the big problem with patents is the practical implementation. That's why I find it more practical for the government intervention in the free market to take the form of prizes rather than patents.

No one has ever proposed a workable solution for getting rid of what we call "bad patents" (and you describe some here), it might just not be practically possible given current human implementation of administration and justice (and common sense is the hardest part of it...).

Do you have a proposition?

One that work when the normal life of the invention in a particular dmain is less than 3 years?

by Laurent GUERBY on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 08:42:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, sorry, I don't have a decisive proposal from the top of my head...

Some things that might help:

  • strongly modulate application fees according to the revenue of the applicant to deter big companies to apply for so many defensive patents.
  • include peer reviews of application by academics (with possible retribution to academia for time spent) to have a more adequate understanding of the state of the art.
  • govnmt to make a worldwide row and clash on some high profile case like the "breast cancer" patents, just to have a message out loud


Pierre
by Pierre on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 09:03:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For the first point, you mean paying more fees if the patent has no revenue?

Not sure it will deal with cross licensing between big companies, they will be replaced by cross royaltie flow...

by Laurent GUERBY on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 01:30:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I mean IBM or micro$loth pay super big bucks if they want to have a patent blocking interoperation of .gif or .doc formats with other companies. But Mr. Niceguy of Smallville pays near nothing if he wants to start up a company with the new yogurt machine he invented in his garage.

Of course, this is still not perfect: patent parasites with only VC money and no revenue would still be able to apply for hundreds of patents for the wheel, the toothpick, the air we breath, the middle button of the mouse, toilet paper, whatever...

Here the academic reviewing and scoring of originality might help.

Pierre

by Pierre on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 03:33:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Patents can be assigned to separate smaller companies by IBM & cie, so I doubt that would work.

About academics, aren't they here to advance science instead of reviewing average Joe garage stuff?

by Laurent GUERBY on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 04:54:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You would still know about the capital or management subordination. It's the same kind of proxy tricks that finance regulators know how to track.

And I think it is doing science a service, if not outright advancement, to make sure that the retribution of private sector "scientists" works smoothly, and that no one is trying to lock up monopoles under the pretense of science and innovation.

So I don't think it conflicts with the societal role of academia. The job already includes missions like education, not just of new scientists but also engineers for industry, so it's not revolutionary for me.

Pierre

by Pierre on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 05:27:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For subordination it is only tracked when there is a lawsuit and that's because it's hard to do for multinationals these days so it's expensive. To do it routinely for patents would require a whole lot of new adminstration and laws, those by themselves could be a good thing (more transparency) but I doubt business will want them.

For academia you need to think about the conflicts: academia is currently pushed very strongly to produces patent so now how will one member of academia judge another member of academia patent?

by Laurent GUERBY on Thu Jun 21st, 2007 at 06:27:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The same way they are peer-reviewing published papers: papers are anonymized, and there are panels of anonymous referees, and the conference/journal editors act as proxies.

Pierre
by Pierre on Thu Jun 21st, 2007 at 07:37:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I didn't realize you meant panels, that means multiple academia reading convoluted legalese patents, even more costly.

For some software patents, it can take days just to understand what the patent is about at the technical level.

BTW, what's your position on prize systems? (after all that's what makes academia work :).

by Laurent GUERBY on Thu Jun 21st, 2007 at 11:23:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
aahh !
I forgot: first things first.
Put all the patent counsels in a long row and tuck the 12.7mm ...
That should make it for the legalese.
And once you reduce the patent volume by out pricing defensive patents, they go out of business anyway.
There is no requirement to speak legalese in a patent. It is the counsel who put it in to justify fees. I met some. Ugly types, with an oligopoly, and a cash cow.
Note that universities already apply for patents today, and they have their own legal depts, to translate stuff into legalese. I met some too: ugly inefficient bureaucratic types.
Besides, legalese is not so hard to speak actually. Lots of hereto, aforeto, hitherto...

Pierre
by Pierre on Thu Jun 21st, 2007 at 12:01:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Violence is always a problem and never a solution :)

Another issue in continuing the current system is clearing the mountains of granted patents, who should pay for that?

All in all, I don't think the patent system can be sustainably cured on practical grounds.

If governments are interested in promoting good ideas and influence the market they should do it with prizes not by giving out freedom-restricting monopolies.

You can have a priori fixed/progressive target prizes (eg X Wh per liter for safe energy storage) and a posteriori prizes (for things that look promising once someone thought about it).

by Laurent GUERBY on Fri Jun 22nd, 2007 at 06:40:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You can buy, read and resell or swap.

Forbiding free lending doesn't change much here, no?

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:48:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yup. big business for textbook dealers

Pierre
by Pierre on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 06:15:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought the point of publication was to have the greatest possible diffusion for your work.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:05:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If that were the case, why not just publish online for free?  

One must eat & pay the bills.  And get tenure.  And be able to boast and feel important.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:09:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And that's what's happening with some of the best content in science: it's being published online for free because people are sick and tired of publishers.

Most scientists have a "day job" teaching, whether tenured or not, or as full-time researchers. Tenure, boast and status have nothing to do with royalties but with diffusion of the work.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:16:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not really, Mig.  There is much more reputation to be gained by having a respectable journal, etc. in your field publish your work than just throwing it on-line yourself...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:49:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Reputation is gained at conferences. Publishing in prestigious journals is only for padding one's resume in order to get tenure, since hiring committees just count the number of prestigious publications and don't read the actual research of their candidates.

See here about journals.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:54:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"only for padding one's resume in order to get tenure"

Which is why I wrote "And to get tenure" ...

I give up.  Talking in circles...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 06:00:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's anyone's choice whether they want maximum distribution, or maximum cash return. Of course, the quality of the work is not correlated with the desired cash returns...

Pierre
by Pierre on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:11:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Given the money I spent on pro-Licence Globale lobbying NGO (amount I made public on ET), my general direction  on this debate should be obvious :).

But I've taken no position on ET IIRC, I've just pointing out what is happening and under what arguments (of course with my position bias).

Here it was the end of free lending in Europe France, given the comments not everyone is aware that it took place.

Now each area of creation is different and the law is already different in many respects for those different areas so it's not a change to continue to be specific.

As I've quoted in this thread, for books much shorter copyright (in the 5-15 years after publication range) are supported by some authors and that's what I favour.

From other debates I would take initial registration plus a fixed number of time paid renewal periods system to provide a bit more to more long-run success while solving the orphan work issue. May be 5 years free initial registration, and up to two paid 5 years renewals.

For libraries the main issue with non-free lending is that they already have a limited budget and having them contribute directly is likely to have polician go the easy route and so it would just disminish more their budget, that's what the USA librarians are saying, and my position is that first-sale doctrine should be imported and free lending restored.

I'd rather see general state budget support for authors. A possibility would be to have the state add to small scale voluntary donations to authors pre or post publication (or author associations, etc...) may be more favourable when authors choose no/shorter copyright terms or lower prices or electronic versions, etc... Prizes some based on electronic votes, some choosen by long established authors can also be an additional way. State funding of teachers to produce varied books for students would likely cost less and be more just than the current system of expensive books.

That would favour non conflictual/more positive author-reader relationship in my view.

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 04:45:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, but with have a little hindsight now. Is the squeezing of library budgets happening in France ?

Pierre
by Pierre on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:09:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I haven't found any global number.
by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 06:08:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here are the relevant passages from the EU DIRECTIVE 92/100/EEC of 19 November 1992 on rental right and lending right:

Article 1
Object of harmonization 1. In accordance with the provisions of this Chapter, Member States shall provide, subject to Article 5, a right to authorize or prohibit the rental and lending of originals and copies of copyright works...

Article 2
Rightholders and subject matter of rental and lending right 1. The exclusive right to authorize or prohibit rental and lending shall belong:
- to the author
in respect of the original and copies of his work...

Article 5
Derogation from the exclusive public lending right 1. Member States may derogate from the exclusive right provided for in Article 1 in respect of public lending, provided that at least authors obtain a remuneration for such lending. Member States shall be free to determine this remuneration taking account of their cultural promotion objectives.

Article 15
Final provisions 1. Member States shall bring into force the laws, regulations and administrative provisions necessary to comply with this Directive not later than 1 July 1994. They shall forthwith inform the Commission thereof.

Note that the directive was 1992 and should have been applied by 1994. In France, it was not. The authors above were part of a campaign applying the logic of the directive to force the French government to get in line by organizing a system of remuneration.

That logic is clear in the directive : authors have the right to withdraw lending right if no system of remuneration is organized. If a system is organized, they forfeit that right. So, when Laurent says "the right of authors to stop free lending", it's a reference to an EU directive authors wanted to see the government get on with responding to. They were saying: if you do nothing about organizing a system of remuneration, we will exercise our right to withdraw lending permission, as set out in the 1992 directive.

The government was then six years over the deadline for responding to the directive. Two years later the system was drawn up and is now in place.

There was never any question of authors wishing to prevent library lending. This was a bargaining chip, no more.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 01:16:27 PM EST
So... if I'm understanding, you're basically saying that Laurent is correct, but that the "threat" was justified and weak, therefore no big deal?

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 02:52:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you are understanding, you are already way ahead of me. ;)

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 03:00:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I'm not sure if I'm understanding, hence the question mark.  It seems to me that afew just proved the Laurent was correct.  Afew just showed that the law in France now blocks free lending and authors had to make threats to enforce it.  

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 03:08:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I'm saying that authors opposed free lending and succeeded in forbiding it: now you have to pay authors when their legally purchased book is lent in France.

I don't undestand why afew removed free from my words.

In the USA, there is still free book lending under the first sale doctrine (section 109(1)).

So in the USA you can buy a copy of a book and then lend it to people without paying anything to anyone, that's what I call free lending.

In Europe and in France, some authors fought to get this free lending forbiden and succeeded, you cannot do the above lending in France without going to jail (3 years max) for counterfeiting.

Now, are french book authors thriving all over the place and USA book authors starving in their cold caves?

I'll let people judge.

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 03:04:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Now, are french book authors thriving all over the place and USA book authors starving in their cold caves?"

No, but that's because America took your place as cultural imperialists...  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 03:08:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't this just another version of the abolition of true sale/ownership?  the idea that purchase is not really purchase but a kind of lease with control of the "merchandise" remaining with the seller, is increasingly popular with sellers :-)  most commercial software licensing [pause for rhetorical spitting on the ground] certainly asserts that the seller controls the conditions of use in perpetuity.

Basically the concept of Enclosed information has run up hard against the ubiquity of low-cost replication.  Capitalists and the State (but I repeat myself) no longer control all the printing presses, 4-colour printing of near-offset quality is affordable to the bourgeoisie if not to the masses.  There's a desperate shuffle to try to figure out how the rentiers can re-enclose what threatens to become a commons.

Seems to me Kafka (and many others) wrote masterpieces while holding down a day job.  I am sympathetic with authors who want to make a full time living of it -- up to a point.  Surely the fundamental impulse of art is to share?  If not -- if they don't want the unwashed to have access to their work -- maybe they should do as the ambitious painters and musicians and playwrights of earlier times did, and produce commissioned works for private consumption by fabulously rich elites.  It;s a good living, and you become famous among the tiny handful of people who "really count" :-)

Seems to me they want popular acclaim and universal exposure while making the public pay for being exposed...

Maybe we should establish a minimal stipend for full time authors and artists -- guaranteed housing, a simple diet and access to the tools of the trade -- and leave it at that, making all their works free.  With perhaps annual prizes awarded by national plebiscite...

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 03:39:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you are spot on bringing up the concept of lease.  This is exactly what they want.  The ability to profit from a sale but to deny the buyer true ownership (control) of their product.  

"Seems to me they want popular acclaim and universal exposure while making the public pay for being exposed..."

It certainly does.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 03:59:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Basically the concept of Enclosed information has run up hard against the ubiquity of low-cost replication.

I think that's the crux of the matter and artists, whether musicians or writers, find themselves in the sorry position of having to side with corporations against their audiences because they need to make a living.

I think there's a good argument to be made that if societies have deemed it worthwhile to educate, inform, and entertain the public through books, and are willing to finance it, then the authors who put the work in should also be compensated in some way.  It seems to me that this agreement has gone some way towards accomplishing that, but that the "leasing" concept it's based on is... well, sort of rotten.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 04:40:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ah but you're forgetting the Maggie Diktat:  "there's no such thing as society".

which leaves artists and authors out there nit doing a public service (there's no such thing as public and no such thing as service) but struggling to make a million small sales to a million disparate customers.  the internet and PoD may change this dynamic quite a bit.

a question about intelprop that nags at me is this:  for how long should someone be allowed to collect revenue for having one bright idea or a moment of inspiration?  since no one creates in a vacuum, how much of our work is really "ours" in an ownership sense (hell, how many of the cells in my body are "me"?  we are colony organisms;  Maggie may have had it all backwards and there is no such thing as the individual).  should an author, film maker, artist live for decades off one painting, one film, one book, one hit song?  would a teacher live for decades off educating one student, a garbage collector live for years off emptying one trash can?

hmmm.  to what extent is the artiste/auteur rightfully asking for a fair barter/exchange rate for many hours of deep thought and hard mental work (I've written for deadline and for publication and I don't demur as to it being hard work at times), or trying to live as a rentier extracting tribute w/o honest labour?

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:50:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Look, Laurent, this is my last attempt at discussing this with you (which, believe me, I regret, because I've no wish to fall out with you).

You posted a list of authors who, you said, had signed up to a certain number of things. You did not quote what they signed up to. In my view, that was already enough for you to hesitate - if you can't actually show what their petition said, you're making a weak case and you might have thought it better to hold off. But you went further than that - you gave a tendentious version of what you say they said:

As everyone knows lending books is the worst kind of theft and if it's not stopped authors will starve to death and civilization will end.

...requesting that public libraries respect the right of authors to stop free lending...

later: authors could say that lending book for free in public library is a crime.

When asked to produce evidence of what the authors you listed said, you gave a flip-you-off reply like go Google it or look in a library.

Meanwhile I provided context and explanation, including the EU directive that explains what "the right to refuse library lending" meant. Melanchthon also provided data. You provided none. Nada. Yet it's clear from what I provided that the authors did not sign up to what you said. But not a word of retraction or explanation from you.

Now, with a smart-ass little pirouette and some pretty insulting quibbling on words (when and where did "authors say" that free lending was a "crime"?), you show your true colours. What's wrong, according to you, is that authors should get any remuneration beyond the royalties on each book, when those books are multiply used, even when users are not asked to pay individually.

I suggest you deal with M$, Monsanto, the Hollywood majors, the music majors, rather than attack book authors, whose remuneration has gone down until it's a joke. And don't look for excuses in the small number of those who make money. Most authors make very little.

I'm sure they'd be better off if they worked in a bank.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 03:41:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

When asked to produce evidence of what the authors you listed said, you gave a flip-you-off reply like go Google it or look in a library.

I was working and quite busy, sorry again for being terse, looks like it made the situation worse than if I had not posted it and waited for a longer version.


Meanwhile I provided context and explanation, including the EU directive

I first mentionned the EU directive (getting the year right from memory :) at 01:43pm UTC and you provided the exact text at 05:16pm UTC (thanks for doing it, but not for taking credit for all the informing :).

As for the text of the petition, I haven't been able to recover it, I'm not sure now it was made public (I've read some pages who said it was given to Catherine Tasca and at the time people were wondering what the text was) and as I said immediately above I have only second hand quotes for it.

Counterpetition was made public here


[...] On s'étonne donc de voir le Syndicat national de l'edition et la Société des gens de lettres envoyer une adresse au ministre de la Culture dont le ton général tend à présenter l'accroissement du nombre d'emprunts en bibliothèques sous ce seul aspect négatif : les auteurs seraient spoliés de leurs droits. Pas un seul mot pour se réjouir de la popularité maintenue de la lecture. En lieu et place, une attaque, rédigée en termes procéduriers, contre la gratuité d'un des derniers services municipaux rescapés de la privatisation.
À en croire cette lettre ouverte, les écrivains ne bénéficieraient pas de la "moindre rémunération". C'est oublier que les bibliothèques font d'abord l'acquisition des ouvrages du catalogue (souvent en plusieurs exemplaires). [...]

There were a few pamphlet writen at the time, a collection of quotes here:

http://severino.free.fr/abondance/textes/preterunlivrenestpasvolersonauteur.html

So all what's left is the law the authors called for, and that law ends free lending by making it a crime (what libraries do in the USA under the first sale doctrine is no longer legal). The exact term is "délit de contrefaçon" in France, since it costs up to 3 years in jail, but I couldn't find with my usual wikipedia/wiktionary tricks another translation than crime for "délit", if a word exist in english for the distinction, I'm sorry not to find it (and I'll be happy to learn it).

Do you contest that those authors called for a law that was making free lending a crime (or other appropriate english word)?

I'm not playing "smart-ass" here at all, sorry if I appear to by the terseness of some of my replies.

For the wrong I'm calling, it's authors pushing for some kind of laws and using some arguments that make me (and other authors) very uncomfortable.

As for my position on the book issue I didn't give it up to now on ET but it's now done see my response to Pierre above. And it's not "cheap" talk since I put some money behind it and will continue to do so (okay I'm on the rich side but still :).

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Jun 19th, 2007 at 05:32:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Another book from the 2000 controversy:

http://www.lelibraire.com/din/tit.php?Id=9654


 La Brouette et les deux orphelines (Correspondances sur le droit de prêt en bibliothèque)
de Ernestine Chasseboeuf
(Ivan Davy/Deleatur, 13.00 € indisponible)

Ce fut la foire d'empoigne l'an dernier en France. Un vrai champ de bataille. D'un côté trois cents écrivains (en herbe ou non), de l'autre plus encore de lecteurs ou de bibliothécaires. Les premiers voulaient que le fruit de leur travail soit mieux rétribué, notamment par les bibliothèques qui prêtent leurs livres gratos à ses lecteurs. Les seconds voulaient préserver la gratuité de l'accès à la culture. Certains étaient du côté des premiers en même temps qu'ils militaient avec les seconds : une vache n'y retrouverait pas son veau.
Avec les avions à réaction qui affolent ses poules (au point qu'elle est obligée de couver les oeufs elle-même), cette histoire a pas mal perturbé Ernestine (l'épistolière la plus connue de Coutures). Qu'on veuille traire les lecteurs des bibliothèques; ça n'a pas plu à la brave nonagénaire. Elle a donc pris la plume et écrit à une soixantaine d'écrivains (il faut le dire vite : on trouve dans ses destinataires des Philippe Bouvard ou Pierre Bellemarre) pour demander un petit peu à chacun qu'il s'explique. Ça faisait déjà quelque temps qu'Ernestine écrivait aux grands de ce monde : ça la change, dit-elle, des activités du "Club des cheveux bleus" qui réunit les vieilles du coin.

Sa plume est bien plantée dans la terre où poussent les artichauts. Droite et solide, elle n'est pas du genre à s'incliner devant les célébrités, les titres et les diplômes. Elle dit ce qu'elle a à dire : à Jean Dutourd, "(...) je me demande bien avec tous les sous que vous avez dû mettre de côté pendant la guerre, sans compter votre paye à l'académie Goncourt, pourquoi vous voulez faire payer les pauvres pour lire dans les bibliothèques." Bien sûr, sa "pseudo-naïveté" (dixit Yves Bonnefoy dans une des réponses) fait que la vieille paysanne confond un peu les académies et les personnes : jusqu'à croire qu'Alain Decaux s'occupe de sanisettes... Mais elle montre, Ernestine, pas mal de connaissances du milieu. C'est qu'elle écoute beaucoup France Culture. Ça et l'intelligence naturelle lui donnent pas mal de bon sens : à Michel Ragon, "Vous qui êtes pour le travail manuel, pourquoi on devrait payer à chaque fois qu'on ouvre vos livres : le menuisier qui a fabriqué une porte, il demande pas cinq francs à chaque fois qu'on l'ouvre".
Bien qu'elle laisse son adresse (Ernestine Chasseboeuf 49320 Coutures) "l'usagée" du bibliobus ne reçoit pas beaucoup de réponses. Quelques-unes maladroites et embarrassées, quelques autres enjouées et rassurantes. Laclavetine ira jusqu'à lui proposer d'écrire un texte pour un livre collectif (Prêter n'est pas voler, Mille et unes nuits 10 FF). On saluera l'humour de notre prix Nobel, Claude Simon : "Chair madameu chassevache, jépalu nonplu vozeuvre con plètes..." Elle a dû être contente, Ernestine, puisqu'elle collectionne les autographes : "Si vous me répondez plus d'une page, s'il vous plaît, écrivez pas derrière la feuille parce que je veux faire des sous-verre, et ça sera plus pratique."
Le livre fait plaisir. Après les dérapages et les injures entendues ici ou là, il replace tout de même les hommes à leur juste niveau : à ras de terre. Et il fait rire; diablement rire. Inutile toutefois d'acheter l'ouvrage. Toutes les bibliothèques de France devraient le commander. Il vous suffira alors d'aller l'emprunter. Ernestine ne vous demandera pas un sou.
Dernière chose : depuis que le livre est paru, la vieille dame, qu'on entendait sur France Culture dans l'émission de Jean Lebrun, est privée d'antenne...
C'est pour cela, notamment, que le Matricule lui a proposé d'adresser sa correspondance à notre site internet (http://www.Lmda.net). On n'est pas pour la censure des vieilles dames.

by Laurent GUERBY on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 06:51:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you want to show minimal intellectual rigour, you should say that, under the French law, free lending by public libraries is authorised (and the authors cannot oppose it), provided the public libraries contribute (for a limited amount) to the authors revenues (and pensions), together with the State. Libraries are not required to make users pay for it, so they can lend for free.

Also, using the word crime is dishonest. A library which would not pay the aforementioned fees would commit an offence, not a crime.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 07:16:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I (obviously now...) agree that especially if you don't know the USA way and debates (first sale doctrine, section 109, I studied a lot these issues) on the topic, "free lending" is ambiguous, I made the USA mechanism clear in a subsequent comment.

As for crime I looked up a traduction for "délit de contrefaçon" but could not find it (see my answer to afew) so I simply didn't know "offense" was the right word (it is linked from english to french but not the other way around in wikipedia/wiktionary...).

Now that I look this up a bit more, in the USA it looks like even for counterfeiting "crime" term is used:

http://www.aippi.org/reports/q169/q169_usa_e.html


Criminal law sanctions with regard to the infringement
of intellectual property rights

1. Introduction

Violators of intellectual property rights have long been subject to criminal prosecution in the United States. The State of New York enacted penal sanctions against trademark counterfeiting in 1847, and 39 other states followed suit by 1899. Copyright infringement has been a federal crime since 1909.
[...]

So I'm not so sure... Any native speaker?

by Laurent GUERBY on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 08:34:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is it a criminal offence or a civil offence? In other words, is this part of the civil or penal code? That's the difference.

By the way, I thought "counterfeiting" involved making a fake copy of something. Since when is lending counterfeiting?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 08:44:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In France it's penal (up to 300 000 euros fine and three year in jail), in the USA too (I don't know the max if there is one :).

Counterfeiting covers all IP violations in legal language (patent, trademarks, copyright) so it covers lending if IP laws say it's prohibited too.

In common language of course it's "fake" as you say.

Physical property violations use different words in legal language (theft, damage, etc...)

by Laurent GUERBY on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 09:02:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Some experiences - the most I ever made from PLR was £800, as opposed to roughly £12,000 in royalties for the equivalent period.

I suppose it's possible that if everyone had gone out and bought my books instead of borrowing them my royalties would have doubled.

However - libraries and bookstores typically serve different markets. Libraries are there to promote literacy. Bookstores are there to sell books. People who go to libraries often don't have the money to feed a regular book habit.

So PLR is a good compromise, and personally I have no problem with it. I would always much prefer libraries to be free, because for many people they're the only way to get access to books.

Now - the range of books available in libraries is much smaller than it used to be. When I was a teen I raided a good selection of literature that doesn't seem to be on the shelves any more, having been pushed out by romantic and popular fiction.

So I'd much rather see publishers coming to an arrangement with libraries to make less mainstream work available than the current UK system where libraries have to keep track of loans and provide a case that proves turnover is steady. It shouldn't be a problem for authors, because realistically they won't be selling the few hundred copies that go to libraries to the people who will read their work there.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 05:34:46 AM EST
From my student time inter-library lending was working quite well (extending the range of available books), but I don't know if it does for non-educ books in local libraries.

BTW, my (current) position on book copyrights:

http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2007/6/19/6598/98393#72

Out of curiosity, were your royalties made in less than 5 years and is your work still in print?

by Laurent GUERBY on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 06:01:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interlibrary loans in Spain don't really work, and even university libraries are fragmented into student libraries and research libraries with restricted access. The efficiency of the Interlibrary Loan system in the US blew me away.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 06:12:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
£12,000? that's not bad, the most my girlfriend has made in a year is about £600

Will we have read anything of yours?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 08:53:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Possibly. :)

It was IT-based non-fiction, appeared just before the peak of the PC/Internet wave and had a household name publisher marketing it, so did fairly well.

Although not nearly as well as some of the big names like O' Reilly and others do. If I'd written something similar for them I'd probably have retired by now.

I'm not done with books yet though.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 02:25:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By coincidence I came home today to find my girlfriends  six monthly statement for her publisher and the associated check. That translates to a chinese Takeaway and a couple of bottles of wine to keep us going.

if it was from just before the peak of the internet wave then I was probably having nothing at all to do with IT at the time, and instead was experimenting with communal living.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Jun 20th, 2007 at 05:08:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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