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Kosovo1999: Ethnic cleansing as business opportunity

by talos Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 02:03:48 AM EST

Tales of organ trafficking by the KLA during the Kosovo campaign  surfaced recently:

BELGRADE, Serbia: Serbia's war crimes prosecutor is looking into reports that dozens of Serbs captured by rebels during the war in Kosovo were killed so their organs could be trafficked, the prosecutor's office said Friday.

The Serbian prosecutor's office said it received "informal statements" from investigators at the U.N. tribunal in The Hague, Netherlands, that dozens of Serbs imprisoned by Kosovo Albanian rebels were taken to neighboring Albania in 1999 and killed so their organs could be harvested and sold to international traffickers.

Bruno Vekaric, the Serbian prosecutor's spokesman, said later on B92 radio that Serbian war crimes investigators have also received their own information about alleged organ trafficking, but not enough for a court case. Vekaric said Serb investigators also received reports suggesting there might be mass graves in Albania containing the bodies of the Serb victims.

Serbian media reported that the issue was brought into the open in a book written by former U.N. war crimes prosecutor Carla Del Ponte that is to be published in Italy on April 3.

According to Serbia's Beta news agency, which carried parts of the book in Serbian, Del Ponte said her investigators had been informed that some 300 Serbs were killed for organ trafficking.

The Beta report quoted Del Ponte as saying in the book that her investigators were told the imprisoned Serbs were first taken to prison camps in northern Albania where the younger ones were picked out, and their organs were later sold abroad.

Here's the more detailed story from Belgrade's B92 and here is the story in Russia Today.
Update [2008-4-11 7:57:9 by talos]:: April 11, The Daily Telegraph has published the relevant excerpts from Carla Del Ponte's book and they're quite unsettling. Meanwhile Russia has apparently filed a request to the ICTY regarding this case.

Promoted by Migeru


The B92 article mentions a "yellow house" which allegedly was the center of the operation and which Del Ponte visited in 2003. During that visit:

In [the house's] vicinity, investigators... found pieces of gauze, used syringes, two plastic IV solution bags, "petrified in mud", empty medicine bottles, including muscle relaxants used during surgeries.

Inside the house itself, forensics discovered traces of blood on the walls and on the floor in one of the rooms. A section of the floor, sized 180 by 60 centimeters, was clean.

"The owner of the house offered a series of explanations to the investigators when it came to the origin of the blood traces. First, he said that his wife gave birth in that room many years ago. But when the wife made her statement and said that all their children were born elsewhere, he claimed that his family used the room to slaughter animals in order to celebrate a Muslim holiday," Del Ponte writes.

To this Doug Muir responded over at A Fistful of Euros claiming that the story is unlikely on a number of grounds. While the actuality of these events is a matter of speculation and possibly unknowable, all of Doug's points seem moot to me:

  • DM claims that 300 Serbs is over a half of all missing Serbs in Kosovo; this is debatable. The Serb side is claiming that over 3000 Kosovar Serbs are missing, but even if we are talking about a total of 400 missing, it doesn't stretch imagination much to picture an organized operation in which prisoners were directed to such camps - anyway the IHT article quoted above speaks of "dozens" of Serb prisoners. Other sources state that the number seems to be "at least 100" or "two trucks full of people". Thus, even if 300 is an inflated number (which it might well be) this does not disallow the possibility that the gist of the story is true.

  • DM suggests that the great difficulty of disposing 300 bodies and of keeping silent about it afterwards makes the story unlikely. He compares the situation with the fact that the Serbian state didn't manage to keep secret neither the executions or the mass graves of abducted Albanian Kosovars. He thus seems to mistake state efficiency in Serbia and Albania with Mob efficiency (in either of these countries actually). Since the organ snatchers, if indeed they existed, would have to be connected with the mob, this isn't much of a problem. I'm sure that neither disposing 300 people, say every year or, much more, convincing people to remain silent about it, is something that is way beyond the capabilities of any self-respecting Mafia (see John Stanfa on corpse-disposal technique).

  • Doug also suggests that the Albanian government would have to be complicit in such an operation. Not at all. Trafficking in people, including cases of organ snatching, already occur and have been occurring for way over a decade in much of the developing world and Eastern Europe, certainly including both Albania and Kosovo, and certainly without government complicity in most cases. In fact a few years ago a Greek-Albanian organ smuggling ring (mentioned here) was, according to investigations, active in Greek and Albanian hospitals and smuggled human organs through diplomatic pouch, having certain Albanian diplomats on the payroll as well. This was certainly neither done with the assistance or help of the Albanian government (DM brushes off a bit too lightly the connection between Berisha the Socialist Party and the KLA,but that's another story). I remind everybody that the border at the time we're talking about was quite porous with refugees coming daily in and out of Albania.

  • The idea that this is a really difficult process, if one assumes the assistance of organizations that are superb smugglers of both goods and people, have access to hospitals and doctors and very fast vehicles of all types, seems likewise an exaggeration. Again any decent-sized mafia could easily pull this over. Otherwise there would be no illegal organ trafficking trade at all. Something which is not the case.

Thus, while I agree that this is very far from proven, I'm much less confident that the whole story can be dismissed as "probably bullshit". If the story is totally bogus, what in the world could make Carla Del Ponte of all people, include it in her book? And neither of Doug's two alternative scenarios regarding the "yellow house" is plausible IMHO. Firstly because no one in Albania would deny involvement in setting up a hospital for the KLA (which anyway could easily accomodated in a regular hospital tending to fleeing Kosovars) and secondly because the "torture-camp" idea, as Doug himself notes, doesn't explain why anybody would do this in Albania rather than on the field in Kosovo.

Two things to add:

  1. The story itself is important in a sense that has little to do with whether it is actually true: This is an innovation, an idea that merges seamlessly with the current zeitgeist of market-driven-everything. It is a brilliant way to make a direct profit from what are usually considered to be martial waste products. The idea is so good that I'm willing to bet that if Dick Cheney has heard about it, having already dispensed with the most of the provisions of the Geneva Conventions, he has his legal team turning the idea into some sort of non-biddable contract for KBR to sign, giving it full authorization for the expedient <s>trafficking</s> salvaging of usable organs from terrorists and other Arabs. This has the potential to be something that is praised in the OpEd columns of the WSJ, blessed by various US congregations and sold as some form of yet another triumph in the annals of ghoulishness graverobbing colonialism humanitarian-war. Similarly, smaller markets could emerge, as a vast array of mafias big and small rush to war zones with medical trucks, doctors and nurses, in order to utilize the soon to be remains of those about to die. Thus, both legal and black market supply of organs will increase. The only problem will be keeping supplies of bootleg organs at low enough levels as to not effect prices by much. Everybody (that matters, anyway) wins! $$$$$$!!!! Lotsa Euros!!!!!

  2. Regardless of the plausibility and validity of the scenario, one can be certain that, had Carla Del Ponte heard of any similar reports of organ trafficking in 1999, but from the other side, i.e. were the accused body snatchers Serbs, with exactly the same evidence to back this up:

a. It would be out in the open well before CDP decided to write a book.
b. A Hollywood film about it would already have been released with a star cast and presented as fact
c. The alleged center of detention and organ snatching would be by now a byword for modern evil, casually referred to as such by pundits on both sides of the Atlantic.
d. The people claiming that the story was "possibly bullshit" would be dismissed as pro-Milosevic patsies, or something like that.
e. I'd be writing a similar post complaining that were the perpetrators of the alleged crimes, anything other than Serbs and were the victims Serbs, people would dismiss the story as not very plausible and in fact it would barely make the news.

[This is an edited version of a post over at histologion]

Display:
Thanks for the IHT link-- been so busy over the past couple of weeks I haven't been able to look around for those.
by lychee on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 01:08:40 AM EST
Any reports on this in Italian media?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 05:48:46 AM EST
I haven't seen anything. I go through four or five dailies each day but may have missed something. It's certainly not frontpage.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 05:22:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Organs are harvested from executed criminals in China, so this wouldn't exactly be unprecedented.
by Gag Halfrunt on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 08:25:05 AM EST
Well, yes, but harvesting your battlefield opponent's - or even worse the organs of members of the ethnicity you want to cleanse from a given territory, I think takes the whole business to a different level.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Mon Apr 7th, 2008 at 05:13:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ugh. As you say, this represents a worrying innovation. Even if it isn't true, it puts the idea out there.

But in an age when the Geneva Conventions can be discarded as "quaint" who knows where this could go ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 08:25:42 AM EST
"Even if it isn't true, it puts the idea out there."
I wonder whether you would have made such a comment had the story been about Serbs harvesting Albanian organs. Or would it have been something like: "How awful. Why couldn't NATO put a stop to this earlier?"
by vladimir on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 10:52:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You know, it's a long time since the standard mass-media spin on the Kosovo/Serbia/other assholes situation was accepted uncritically on ET. Are you thinking of some other site maybe?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 10:57:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, I'll accept the criticism.

Although I started off feeling that the Serbs were more guilty than others (even if all hands have blood on them), I have moved towards accepting that all of the various political groups and associated militia are equally guilty for the mess that is the Balkans. Equally I still feel that there are too many in influential positions who are agitating for a return to no-holds barred slaughter and who resent the interference of the West in preventing them.

So this has led to the idea that the West is part of the problem. Whilst I'm prepared to accept that some of those involved have vested interests and preferred winners, I still argue that our presence in the Balkans is a net benefit.

This is an unpopular view. Especially as I criticize all sides for being more prepared to indulge in macho chest-thumping than the jaw-jaw that leads to, if not peace, then a more stable cesefire.

I hate these gangster's (that's all sides) childish playground antics cos real people die as a result of them, real people are driven from their homes, real people are rounded up and walk off into woods and never seen again. And I say that and it annoys people. Grubby truth bluntly stated is offensive, I accept that. But it sure as heck ain't as offensive the pictures on the telly of people screaming and crying in grief and terror, of bodies rotting and houses burning as the generational hatreds advance one more notch.

So, yea, I'll take his criticism cos I point out where this goes and that makes me unpopular.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 11:25:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The way I read what he wrote, he's saying you're especially anti-Serb and would be more inclined to believe this story if the Serbs were the villains. I don't really think that's true around here any more.

Our presence might be rather more beneficial if it was a little more even-handed and not quite so quick to assign good guys and bad guys.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 11:35:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ha, but that was the point which I accepted. I did start off being very critical of the Serbian sabre-rattling and less aware that others bear equal responsibilities.

I honestly don't think there will ever be a story of what happened that can accurately reflect the aggressions and grievances of all sides.

And I am exasperated that there are too many, on all sides, who would rather ramp up the tensions and permit a return to slaughter than calm down and talk. In fact I am aghast that we seem to be moving towards the idea that it's all the West's fault. I ain't so sure.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 11:48:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I never said, for one, that it's all the West's fault. But when I go behind the scenes and realize that a lot of the dirty stuff is done with a wink and a nod from the West, I'm disgusted.

Read this and realize that this is a NATO general who was in command in the early days of the Yugo break-up:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8533

Now we have ethnic cleansing going on with certain EEU/NATO members having planned it. We have President's and PMs advising Bosnians and Albanians that a massacre must occur to turn the tide of public opinion, we have staged events such as Racak and the Markale Market massacre that do change public opinion. We have the USA bombing Iraq unapologetically and saying, "The deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children are worth it." All these events dovetail very nicely from an old playbook that's used to coerce the media into turning the tide of public opinion. Anytime Western actors get involved, the likes of ex-CIA William Walker show up, and such men are all too ready to preside over the sensational show that is a massacre such as the one at Racak.

by Upstate NY on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 02:07:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some individual comments deviate from mainstream ET opinion, which I agree is positively critical of ... most everything. In past discussions on Balkan topics, Helen's remarks have been markedly less questioning of alleged atrocities committed by Serbs than they are of atrocities committed against Serbs. Thus my reaction.
by vladimir on Sun Apr 6th, 2008 at 11:57:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Speaking of afoe and its doubts about stories in Serbian media: do our Balkans 'reporters' have any contrary info to this?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Apr 7th, 2008 at 05:49:49 AM EST
Nope, it's the sort of thing that can easily be a case of recycled propaganda based on real or contrived expert testimony - but a letter to B92 would relieve us of the arduous task of searching the internets for an exact quote!

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Mon Apr 7th, 2008 at 07:13:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
   Personally I find Doug's arguments quite solid. Even if they were not so, a room with traces of blood and an uncooperative owner does not imply truckloads of victims in the slightest.
   Frankly, I think this is bullshit and we should say so if only because a) this kind of stories are easy to make when there is the public to believe them  and b) thousands of peoples may die decades from now because of them.
by Deni on Mon Apr 7th, 2008 at 08:04:06 AM EST
I'll await a fuller quote from Del Ponte's book before judging it either way.

b) thousands of peoples may die decades from now because of them.

Very true.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Apr 7th, 2008 at 08:32:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does it apply to the other side as well, however? For instance, Racak?
by Upstate NY on Mon Apr 7th, 2008 at 04:20:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well what I'm saying is that while there is too little evidence to judge whether this did indeed happen, Doug's arguments are far from convincing mainly because they seem to imply that organ trafficking is too difficult for organized crime to be able to pull through. I think there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

The interesting thing about this story (and the fact that makes worth pondering) is that it didn't originate from relatives of the disappeared, or from the usual nationalist Serb circles, but from Ms. Del Ponte herself, a person whom it would be quite a stretch to even imagine being partial to the Serb side. Evidently that she considered it worth mentioning, makes it more than just another Serb tall tale of Albanian gore.

The argument that this kind of story is easy to make up because there are many Serbs willing to believe it - is i.e. exactly the kind of argument that Serb nationalists who deny that Srebrenica ever really happened, use to deny that it ever really happenned. By itself it doesn't prove anything. The second argument would mean that all (and I mean all) cases of atrocities in the former Yugoslavia are better left forgotten and untouched, prosecutions should be dropped etc. In fact letting the story unexplored and unresearched risks fanning the flames of future conflicts IMHO much more than if it is indeed looked into. Finally, it seems much more likely that thousands of people may die decades from now because of Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence than because of any gruesome tale from either side.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Mon Apr 7th, 2008 at 07:10:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nitpicking: as I understand it from the reports so far, what Del Ponte brought us is the story of the yellow house, the claim that organ harvesting took place there was rumours (possibly from Serbs) that first led her there. (This is why I am curious about the details of what Del Ponte writes.)

I note Doug M's main argument against Del Ponte herself seems to be a well emphasized low opinion of her...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 05:54:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, let's see what she writes. However CDP must have been the recipient of hundreds of claims of crimes. Why would she include this particular story if she wasn't at least suspicious of the circumstances? Again, this might or might not be true, and everyone is presumed innocent until found guilty. Doug's reasons for it not to be true however are weak. And don't get me started on the very simple picture he's painting about the relationship between the KLA and Berisha on the one hand, and the de facto relation that the Socialists, barely controlling the country in 1999, much less the North of the country, had with the KLA.

IIRC Doug has had historically a low opinion of Del Ponte, regarding her total lack of an understanding of what her actions entailed politically. Not as far as I can remember regarding her competence as a public prosecutor. Anyway it would be a far stretch indeed, I repeat, to portray Del Ponte as pro-Serb.

The two points I wanted to make, did not have mainly to do with whether this is a true story (we have no way to find out anymore) but rather with the potentially very contagious nature of the whole concept and the near certainty that were this an accusation of organ snatching against the Serbs, it would be treated with much less scepticism, to say the least.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 12:41:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Del Ponte's sources on this story are Western journalists who heard of the story, and were told of the yellow house, by people who new of it firsthand. Del Ponte's people actually informed the Serbs about this, not the other way around.

For some odd reason, the men who maraud, rape and slice and dice, are often proud of their dirty work, to the point of compulsively wanting to show their deeds to journalists and witnesses. This has been the case through the 20th century. I can cite numerous examples, including the well known one in the Balkans in which the Italian ambassador, Kurt Erich Suckert, was passed a bowl full of eyeballs. Naser Oric showed his handiwork to a Canadian journalist. Hitler made films of the Valkyrie executions. Etc. It's no small wonder that journalists would be far more apt to hear of such acts than investigators.

by Upstate NY on Wed Apr 9th, 2008 at 03:01:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Del Ponte's sources on this story are Western journalists who heard of the story, and were told of the yellow house, by people who new of it firsthand.

Could you quote the source for us?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 03:29:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Unfortunately I can't. I'm getting this from snippets of Del Ponte's book which have been released. That's where the sources of the information are quoted, and then she describes the subsequent investigative follow-up.

One thing to note: I read these quotes in English, and Del Ponte's book is not written in English, and the quotes I read were not attributed to any particular translator. I actually don't know where they came from.

by Upstate NY on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 08:10:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just for the sake of precision, the book was written in English- actually American- and translated into Italian. Feltrinelli is pulling off another literary scoop as it did with Dr. Zhivago. It is coming out in anteprima worldwide in the translated version. It's been in the bookstores for the past week in Italian but will come out in "American" once enough hype has been generated. It is a very lengthy book that touches Carla Del Ponte's entire career.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 09:07:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Really? Wow. Then the articles I was reading were completely half-cocked because they claimed the English translation is not due for awhile. Hard to believe anything these days.
by Upstate NY on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 09:54:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Telegraph versions are translations from Italian according to the site.

The book, which I have, has written "translated from American." I presume it must be based on tapes and put together in English by the two authors. Del Ponte does speak several languages.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 01:35:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I found in today's Torygraph:

Serb prisoners 'were stripped of their organs in Kosovo war' - Telegraph

Miss Del Ponte reports that the allegations were made by several sources, one of whom "personally made an organ delivery" to an Albanian airport for transport abroad, and "confirmed information directly gathered by the tribunal".

According to the sources, senior figures in the Kosovo Liberation Army were aware of the scheme, in which hundreds of young Serbs were allegedly taken by truck from Kosovo to northern Albania where their organs were removed. Miss Del Ponte provides grim details of the alleged organ harvesting, and of how some prisoners were sewn up after having kidneys removed.

"The victims, deprived of a kidney, were then locked up again, inside the barracks, until the moment they were killed for other vital organs. In this way, the other prisoners were aware of the fate that awaited them, and according to the source, pleaded, terrified, to be killed immediately," Miss Del Ponte writes.

That's a more complex picture (with not all alleged organ-harvesting equal to killing; throwing up the question whether there could have been survivors), and indeed Del Ponte reports sources making quite specific claims, it's not mere rumours.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 04:08:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Torygraph includes excerpts from the book, which if anything make the case even more suspicious - and are in fact quite shocking. I note that the book explicitly states that: "According to the journalists' sources, who were only identified as Kosovo Albanians, some of the younger and fitter prisoners were visited by doctors and were never hit"... and it is that small subset of the 300 captured Serbs that were killed for their organs - apparently from the rest of the story that includes 1 kidney and 1 other organ.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 07:48:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for that link, that gives all the answers!

In the first excerpt (on what preceded the yellow house visit), I think I can read out something between the lines:

'The material within [from the office of the court] does not contain specific material from Albania; but a low number of witness statements and other material we have confirms and to a certain extent amplifies the stated information,' I noted in a memo on this activity.

...The victims of these cases were probably seized after the end of the NATO air campaign... It was not clear whether crimes committed in this arc of time fell under the mandate of the tribunal.

The prosecutors office should have asked for the names of the sources from the journalists and UNMIK as well as any other information they had on this case.

E.g., this case didn't solidify further not because of simply weak evidence but because it wasn't properly investigated; Del Ponte suggests her hands were bound, with the territorial and temporal limits to her Tribunal. The last sentence is mysterious, her being the Chief Prosecutor; does she suggest some outside (or lower-ranked inside) powers prevented the prosecutors' office from taking action?

From the second excerpt:

The house was now white. The owner denied it had ever been repainted even though investigators found traces of yellow along the base of its walls.

...The syringes, the iv solution bags, the gauze are clearly material which confirms the tales, but as proof they are unfortunately insufficient. The investigators were not able to determine whether the traces they found were of human blood. The sources did not indicated the position of the grave of the presumed victims and so we did not find the bodies.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 11:17:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Off topic, but is it typical in Europe to refer to an unmarried woman as Miss?
by Upstate NY on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 08:13:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Torygraph is not in Europe. It's in Great Britain. They could sue you for that comment you know.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 08:16:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that what the Torygraph does?

FWIW, a long time ago when I was learning English I was told Ms is neutral with respect to marital status, and I tend to use that almost exclusively. But that's just me.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 08:17:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is common practice in the United States as well. Miss is used for a very young woman, and NEVER for a professional woman.
by Upstate NY on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 09:55:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by lychee on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 07:42:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Del Ponte's own judgement on the yellow house, from the Torygraph article:

The book reports a visit by Hague tribunal investigators to a house south of the Albanian town of Burrel where they found traces of blood across a wide area, as well as medical equipment.

"The investigators found pieces of gauze, a used syringe and two plastic IV bags encrusted with mud and empty bottles of medicine, some of which was of a muscle relaxant often used in surgical operations," she writes. However, she concludes that the finds do not amount to sufficient proof for a war crimes tribunal.

They also quote this negative view on the claims from someone in Serbia:

In Belgrade, Natasha Kandic, the highly respected head of the investigative Humanitarian Law Centre, said ordinary Serbs "welcome the publication of this book" but said allegations of organ-smuggling were "rumours". "I talked to her many times, she never told me about this," said Miss Kandic.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 04:12:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
??? Kandic's quote gives off the scent of someone certain of their self-importance. What is she actually saying? That Del Ponte never informed her therefore Del Ponte is making it up? Wow.

The Serb War Crimes people are on record as saying that Del Ponte informed them of the investigation.

by Upstate NY on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 08:15:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Before judging Kandic, note that this is the Torygraph.

This paragraph on Kandic is a mix of a few short disparate paraphrases and direct quotes, who knows how much mis-representation was in abridging a fuller interview, and who knows on  how much information (presumably told by the interviewer) she could base her judgement.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 11:01:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently the Swiss government has banned Del Ponte from promoting her book (she's the Swiss ambassador to Argentina). It seems that she names the current Kosovo Prime Minister Hashim Thaci as the man in charge of the operation.

Again I note that this is Carla Del Ponte, a woman accused that as head of the ICTY she targeted Serbia:

"In fact, an excellent case can be made that the ICTY's focus on "justice" was well suited to avoiding peace, and that its very design was to facilitate war, a  dismantling of  Yugoslavia, and  a specific attack on Serbia.
(Edward Herman must be a bit confused over her latest revelations). The woman who asked for the dead body of Radovan Karadzic. The woman who found no evidence of NATO warcrimes in Yugoslavia, during the course of the bombing raids. It is somehow of relevance, I think, that she was not considered (and I'm putting it lightly) as exactly pro-serb or anti-NATO. If she indeed has the habit of making unfounded charges, then her whole career as a ICTY prosecutor should be rethought. However it seems that it is only a scandal when she accuses the wrong people at the wrong time.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 01:06:56 PM EST
The woman who asked for the dead body of Radovan Karadzic.

Your link implies the opposite: that she wanted Karadžić to turn himself in so that he stays alive, warning that otherwise NATO would want to kill him.

Del Ponte said that she received "some evidence that it (the Karadzic - Holbrook agreement) is true".

"If this is true, then it only confirms the assumption even more, that Karadzic was to killed", added Carla del Ponte.

She, according to the stenograph, said that Karadzic needs to have the possibility to defend himself in a normal court process, but not to kill him.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 03:26:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. My bad, I misread this. The general point however of CDP as not exactly a fan of Serb nationalism, stands.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 07:00:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, didn't meant to question that.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 10:54:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your first link doesn't work, damn Euronews doesn't seem to archive articles. But here is it from swissinfo:

Del Ponte book promotion vetoed

Switzerland's ambassador to Argentina, Carla Del Ponte, has been told by the Swiss foreign ministry she cannot promote a new book.

The former chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia in The Hague was asked to return to Buenos Aires before a scheduled presentation in Milan on Sunday.

The foreign ministry said there were statements in "The Hunt: Me and War Criminals", written with New York Times reporter Chuck Sudetic, that were incompatible with Del Ponte's status as an official government representative.

From your second link:

Religious Intelligence - News - Serbs 'were killed and their organs were sold'

According to Del Ponte's new book, The Hunt: Me and War Crimes, it is claimed that both the former chief prosecutor and her team of investigators were informed that 300 Serbs were abducted and taken to prison camps in northern Albania where the younger ones were picked out, killed and then had their organs removed for trafficking in various parts of Europe.

That sounds like dozens killed & organ-harvested out of 300. So one of Doug M's points of doubt may be based on a misinterpretation in repeated translation and re-reporting. (For the record, I myself had one doubt that Doug didn't have: 300 'sets' of organs suddenly appearing on the black market seem too much to go unnoticed.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 04:04:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose I should pick up a copy and read the incriminating passage. I'm wary of Del Ponte bashing. Given the circumstances, she did what she could.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 05:20:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, 300 sets of organs is a lot, but whether this is noticed or not depends on the demand. In 2003 there was a waiting list for kidney transplants of 40.000 people - only in Europe. One would have to be able to monitor the price of contraband kidneys in the market to make a decision one way or another.

Anyway the IHT article linked in the diary mentions explicitly in its intro paragraph dozens of cases:

Serbia's war crimes prosecutor is looking into reports that dozens of Serbs captured by rebels during the war in Kosovo were killed so their organs could be trafficked, the prosecutor's office said Friday.

BTW there is no doubt in my mind that in the Serbian folklore inevitably coming out of this, the 300 number will stick. Again we'll have to wait for the book.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 07:11:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is worth reading the comments to Talos' earlier diary on The Haradinaj test
A bit more than a year ago, noting Ramush Haradinaj's immense luck (a streak which, goes way back), I made the point that "the Haradinaj case is a litmus test for the impartiality of the Hague tribunal - at least as far as any credibility it might still have among Serbs".

The test results are in. They're negative.

where he was asked to cross-post the present diary.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 02:09:43 AM EST
CNN International: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/04/11/kosovo.organs.ap/

If this weren't such a gruesome allegation, I would find this story comical.

I want Human Rights Watch to be a credible organization, but inevitably I'm underwhelmed by their interventions. Writing to ex-KLA about KLA crimes s an odd way to go about getting an answer. Let's just write George Bush and ask him to investigate what Cheney knew about Plame.

by Upstate NY on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 at 09:58:05 AM EST
Doug Muir, was kind enough to respond to this over at histologion. I replied. Judging from past discussions I had with Doug, it is unlikely that it will stop here :-). However I'll be away for (Greek) Easter for a week, so it might be a while before I follow this up...

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 at 08:02:24 AM EST


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