Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Quickie: Crush Gas Guzzlers

by rdf Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 08:14:00 AM EST

The other day I floated an idea about having a spot for short items - something less than a full diary and more than a comment in a open thread. Here's my attempt at such an idea. [Actually this turned out a bit longer than I intended...]
---
The market for gas guzzlers in the US has collapsed. On a radio show this morning one such owner (8 mpg) said that the original prices was $50K, he had paid $40K for a used one off lease a few years ago, and was now thinking of selling it. The "book" value or nominal resale historically for the vehicle was about $25K given the additional age, but that dealers would only offer him $8K.

My suggestion: a government program to have car makers accept such unsalable vehicles in exchange for a much higher mileage alternative with two incentives. The one for the seller would allow him to claim a "casualty" loss of the difference between the historical trade-in value and the new reality. Let's say in this case $17K (25-8). This loss could then be declared on the seller's income tax along with other traditional casualty losses.

The car maker would have to give a higher than current trade in allowance subject to two conditions: the gas guzzler would have to be scrapped and the replacement vehicle would have to be new and meet certain performance standards. In exchange the car maker would also get some sort of incentive from the government. This could be in the form of a tax credit or something similar.

The net effect: gas guzzlers get off the road quicker, new car sales get a boost and fuel consumption declines.


Display:

SUVs still roaring up China's sales charts

Although demand for SUVs is slumping in most parts of the world, it remains strong in China. Sales rose by 40 per cent in the first four months of the year - more than double the growth rate for the passenger car market as a whole. Car imports have also nearly doubled. Many of these are large luxury cars.


"As a boy, I always dreamt of owning a big car," says Zhou Qiang, a real-estate executive in Beijing who bought a Hummer H1 at an auction two years ago and who is not worried about its oil-thirsty image. "There are plenty of other sources of pollution than cars, and life is short so we should enjoy ourselves anyway."


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 08:39:47 AM EST
It's the 1980's all over again, only this time in China!

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 08:47:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To Get Rich is Glorious. The title was used by Orville Schell for a book in the early '80s about post-Mao de-collectivization and modernization. Now it looks as if every columnist and magazine is copying the same title to natter on about China in the '00s.

If you can find a copy of Schell's book, it's worth reading for context of what's happening now.

by Mnemosyne on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 08:02:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"To get rich is glorious." -- Deng Xiaoping.

That quote, along with some directives allowing private enterprises, sorta kicked off the whole scene in China.  It was not Mao's Communist Party anymore.

Perhaps Hummers could be recycled to civilians in oil producing countries, such as Saudi Arabia, The Emirates and Yemen.  They could at least afford to drive them.  Wouldn't help the ozone layer though.


"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Jun 22nd, 2008 at 12:20:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sadly, they've learned from our lessons ... to make the same (disastrous) societal mistakes?

Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart. NOW!!!
by a siegel (siegeadATgmailIGNORETHISdotPLEASEcom) on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 08:52:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Have U.S. Drivers Reached Filling Point of No Return?

As a percentage of total U.S. auto sales, sales of light trucks -- a category that includes SUVs -- peaked at 55% in 2005. Since then, more people have been shifting to smaller vehicles. So far this year, light trucks have accounted for 47% of auto sales.

A drop from 55% to 47% is hardly paradigm changing, yet. It means that (a small) half of new cars (admittedly a slightly declining number itself right now) are still light trucks.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 08:46:09 AM EST
Absolutely, that plunge has a long way to go.

What is the "legitimate" market space for large vehicles?  10% of what the market actually has been?

And, then, as well, one has to wonder whether there will be real gains in the fuel efficiency at the 'large' end.

For example, I have viewed the "minivan" as a space truly open for PHEV.  Why?  Relatively large vehicles, able to 'sacrifice' some space for early generation batteries/such.  In a market space which cares about gasoline prices &, to a certain extent, environmental image.  And, generally, sold to people with some legitimate claim for 'size'/seats. (The neighbors with five kids (included the adopted) & such ...)  Sigh ... the Chevy Volt is a two seater.

Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart. NOW!!!

by a siegel (siegeadATgmailIGNORETHISdotPLEASEcom) on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 08:55:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I had a friend in California who wanted to replace his old minivan but couldn't find a decent one at any dealers so he had to settle for a not-too-offensive SUV. This was in 2003-4.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 09:00:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Probably larger than that since it includes actual light trucks for folks who need to use them for work. SUV's, however, seem like they should be a tiny niche market. For moderately large families what's interesting is the decline of the station wagon. When I was a kid, most families with more than two kids had one of those. They don't get great mileage but it's better than an SUV. And families with kids need space, not power.
by MarekNYC on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 02:37:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The minivan replaced the station wagon starting in the mid 1980's.  The SUV's ascension was due to the poor image of the "family van" and the SUV was thus a cooler, higher-status vehicle for your kid to be picked up from school in.  Ultimately that status grew to include being a cooler vehicle to be seen stuck in traffic on the freeway in.

Americans are idiots.  

The vast majority of SUV's can be found in suburbs.  In the city you will find a higher percentage of German cars.

by paving on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 03:12:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Americans are idiots."

Yes, however, the SUV craze is not limited to the U.S.

by asdf on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 05:09:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, but I think it's fair to say that it's a much larger problem in America.

Personally, my attitude is, "Fuck'em.  I got a nice, small car with good mileage, while they got $50k penis enlargements.  Suck on it."

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 04:02:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
True, but at least they have some feeble excuses, like large families. In China, with their one-child policy, they don't even have that.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 04:17:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But that's not even a feeble excuse outside of Utah.  (I suppose you could talk about Catholics, too, but nobody listens to the Pope in America about that whole no-condomns thing.)  Almost every American family could do just fine in a Civic or a Corolla.  Certainly they don't need anything bigger than a Camry or an Accord.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 04:19:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i am an american, and i live in germany, and yes most americans are brain dead idiots. total morons. this energy crisis is going to be MUCH worse than in the 70s, because under reagan bush 1 and bush 2 people in america got really stupid. really really really stupid. most of the people under 40 are total idiots, clueless about the world, and the most selfcentered group of people i have EVER seen.
idiot isnt strong enough. how about morons...

Life is not a dress rehearsal
by johnfire (johnfire@christopherrehm.com) on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 05:34:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Most people under 40?  The country began going to shit right around the time the God-damned Boomers became eligible to vote.  Those people would be well over 40, pal.  The people under 40 aren't the ones putting these motherfuckers in office, so where do you get that bullshit from?  The people under 40 aren't the God-damned idiots who believe tax cuts pay for themselves, or that global warming isn't real, or that drilling for oil in Florida is going to make us independent.

No, it's the old fucks who sold this country out to Reagan for a fucking tax cut to their bosses, who pissed away everything their parents built, and left those of us under 40 with the debt bomb.

But nice try.  Thanks for playin'.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 05:52:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ok you got a point.

but if those of us who know better dont treat each other better we are as bad as they are.

just a thought


Life is not a dress rehearsal

by johnfire (johnfire@christopherrehm.com) on Fri Jun 20th, 2008 at 02:58:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Treating each other better is fine, but my point was that you needed to get your generations straight when talking about America's official fuck-ups.  The data is pretty clear.

If people under 40 made the decisions, President Gore would be getting ready to hand off a nearly debt-free, and far more energy conscious, America to President Obama.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Jun 21st, 2008 at 11:01:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"President Gore would be getting ready to hand off a nearly debt-free, and far more energy conscious, America to President Obama."

to President Kucinich, you mean...  :-)

by asdf on Sat Jun 21st, 2008 at 01:04:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Jun 21st, 2008 at 01:14:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
According to Paul Craig Roberts, the rise of the SUV was the result of state intervention:

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts01302008.html


Or the fleet milage standards that regulation imposes on car makers. These regulations destroyed the family station wagon. Families needing carrying capacity turned to vans and to panel trucks. Car makers saw a new market and invented the SUV, which as a "light truck" was exempt from the fleet milage regulations. The effort to impose fuel economy resulted in cars being replaced by over weight fuel-guzzling SUVs.

:D

by Humbug (mailklammeraffeschultedivisstrackepunktde) on Sat Jun 21st, 2008 at 07:44:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My estimate is trying to figure out how many people have actual work requirements for SUVs.  I am not talking about the realtor who throws three signs and five balloons in the back.  

I don't know nation-wide, but my impressionistic is that 10% is perhaps a generous number as to who actually requires that light-duty vehicle for work purposes.

Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart. NOW!!!

by a siegel (siegeadATgmailIGNORETHISdotPLEASEcom) on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 06:01:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
SUV's sure, but pickup trucks seem to me to be very commonly used for work purposes.  What would also be useful would be more four wheel drive vehicles that aren't SUV's
by MarekNYC on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 06:21:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is the point of 4WD in passenger cars? (Disclaimer: I used to drive a Subaru with AWD.) Snow tires are a much better solution to the "not getting stuck in snow" problem, and there is absolutely no need for 4WD/AWD in normal driving conditions. And the extra mechanical parts add weight and friction.

What did workers do before there were these huge pickup trucks, anyway? They used small vehicles, VW vans, Jeeps, station wagons... There is at best very limited need for a Ford F-350 Super Duty pickup truck. None, really, when you get down to it.

by asdf on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 06:57:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There have been big pickup trucks forever (dating back to before WWII). The difference is that they were very clearly intended for work - no back seat, no indoor features, just functionality.

 On 4wd I'm not a driver but I've spent a lot of time on snowy mountain roads as a passenger, and they're much easier to get out of a drift, and much less likely to skid. It might be true that snow tires are better than 4wd without them, but everybody in a snowy climate has winter tires regardless of what they're driving.  Chains are even better, but they're an absolute pain to be constantly putting on and taking off.

by MarekNYC on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 07:27:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The pickup trucks I'm familiar with back into the 1960s were not nearly as big as today's. And obviously in Europe it is possible for a carpenter to get to work without having a massive 4WD truck...
by asdf on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 10:31:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Japanese solution to the workman's problem . . . the K-Truck

Shop Here!

by Zwackus on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 05:42:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What got me thinking was the driver in the radio story was being forced into holding on to his guzzler because he couldn't afford to get something else. (One consideration, he has five kids.)

This is the same issue that comes up when we talk about insulating homes or replacing inefficient heating systems or the like. Bleeding money slowly is the only choice for people with no access to adequate capital.

People always say "where will we get the money?". Obama just put out some plan or other and he is going to get the revenue from tweaking some tax or other. What's never discussed is getting the money by not building more military hardware or not funding some ongoing aspect of the imperial empire like foreign bases.

I guess the choices in Europe and Japan are a bit harder since there is no comparable military elephant sitting there unexamined.

I mentioned $100 billion for fusion R&D yesterday = eight months in Iraq. It's all about priorities.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 09:29:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
rdf:
This is the same issue that comes up when we talk about insulating homes or replacing inefficient heating systems or the like. Bleeding money slowly is the only choice for people with no access to adequate capital.
And if people not getting access to adequate capital gets in the way of sociaty's goals (be it energy efficiency or full employment) an economic ideology that prevents the State from creating money to spend on necessary things (taxing away any resulting surplus purchasing power) is actively damaging to the public good.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 10:23:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
People are going to be learning once again about used cars.  A 2001 Nissan Altima, for example, would be suitable for 90% of SUV owners and can be picked up for 8k I'm sure.
by paving on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 03:13:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's a 2002 Toyota for $9500...

http://cosprings.craigslist.org/car/724154348.html

However, you can get a REAL car for only $7000:

http://cosprings.craigslist.org/car/724149798.html

by asdf on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 05:15:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've long believed that property tax on vehicles should be, in part at least, based on fuel efficiency/engine size to help lower that long term demand.

In any event, where would the funds come from for this incentive packaging?  What would we sacrifice, as a society, to do this?

Now, if we were willing to start taxing gasoline in a serious (escalating) way and use a portion of the resources to help drive energy efficiency in the vehicle fleet, perhaps that would do it. On the other hand, amid screaming outrage (and real pain) over escalating gasoline prices (all over the globe), does anyone see the US political will for a serious move to augment gasoline taxes?

Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart. NOW!!!

by a siegel (siegeadATgmailIGNORETHISdotPLEASEcom) on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 08:58:26 AM EST
France has introduced this year a fairly simple system of bonus/malus for new cars linked to their CO2 emissions (if below 120g/km, you get a few hundred euros bonus, if above 200g/km you pay a couple thousand euro penalty).

The change in the kinds of vehicles sold this year has, so far, been remarkable, with a massive boom for smaller cars (especially those with the best engines, emissions-wise), large drops for bigger cars and more polluting engines, and a massive effort by manufacturers to provide models that fall jsut below the threshholds.

When half-year statistics come out next month, I'll try to do a post.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 09:20:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome a Paris:
CO2 emissions

I've always wondered what the difference is between "CO2 emissions" and "carbon-based fuel consumption".

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 02:49:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Emissions are the by-products of consumption.  

x amount of coal (carbon fuel) produces x/n emissions, where n is: all the stuff that isn't emissions.  


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Jun 21st, 2008 at 01:39:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the US people will have a huge fit if you attempt to "discourage new car sales" by adding a, gasp, tax to them.  That's all anyone will hear.  Remember, Americans are idiots.

The above idea of subsidizing trade-ins and giving people a break on the "loss" is a great idea because it doesn't cost much and makes people think they're getting something for free.  I'd also suggest that controlling the size of auto loans is a good idea too, but that's also sacrilegious.

If you want to be genuinely progressive you'll find a way to funnel a substantial amount of money into public transit during a gas-guzzler trade-in program.  If you can generate a billion or two dollars in any given metro area you can seriously jumpstart mass-transit infrastructure.

by paving on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 03:16:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the second time you say that in this thread.

It's overstating the point a bit, isn't it?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 03:43:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
unfortunately, no it isnt.

70% of them are morons. i know i just left there beacause i couldnt stand it any more.when i tried to tell them that national health insurance works in europe, i was called a communist. when i tried to tell them that public transport works in europe i was called a moron, this by people who have never been here. i can go on and on and on, but yes for the most part they are total morons. and they are going to pay a terrible price for it.


Life is not a dress rehearsal

by johnfire (johnfire@christopherrehm.com) on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 05:42:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Um, we're going to pay a price, too.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 06:07:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yes, but europe is better set up to handle what is coming. better support network, better outlook on  the idea we are all in it together. i hope

Life is not a dress rehearsal
by johnfire (johnfire@christopherrehm.com) on Fri Jun 20th, 2008 at 02:57:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Japan has had such a system for a long time.

The bigger the engine, the higher your yearly car tax, and the higher your twice yearly car-inspection fee.  These are not trivial taxes.  I pay 35000 yen a year or so in car taxes for my small 4-cylinder engine, around 1300 cc or so.  Above 1450 cc you end up in a different tax bracket, and have to pay somewhere around 100000 yen a year in car taxes.  And there are even higher brackets as well.

On the other hand, if you're willing to put up with a truly tiny car and an engine no larger than 500 cc, there's a special Keizai-kuruma bracket, with negligable car taxes.

Sadly, those k-cars are increasingly replacing bicycle use, as the younger generations are too lazy to ride anywhere, and as the suburban and rural infrastructure has been optimized for car usage along American lines.

by Zwackus on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 05:49:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
a siegel: I've long believed that property tax on vehicles should be, in part at least, based on fuel efficiency/engine size to help lower that long term demand.

China to raise car tax to spur fuel efficiency
(Bloomberg)
Updated: 2006-03-22 17:31

China will adjust its tax rates on automobiles, motorcycles and rubber tires. China's government said it will adjust its tax rates on automobiles, motorcycles and rubber tires to encourage the use of vehicles with smaller engines that burn less fuel.

Beginning on April 1, the top tax rate for automobiles will be raised to 20 percent from 8 percent for vehicles with engine displacements larger than 2 liters, according to a statement posted on the Ministry of Finance's Web site.

The government of the world's third-largest vehicle market is trying to encourage consumers to choose cars with smaller engines to cut fuel consumption as rising incomes and falling car prices make cars affordable to more people. Individual vehicle ownership more than doubled to 13.65 million units in 2004 from 6.25 million in 2000, according to the China Council for the Promotion of International Trade.



... all progress depends on the unreasonable mensch.
(apologies to G.B. Shaw)
by marco on Fri Jun 20th, 2008 at 05:12:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My Espace (a large family MPV) has a 4-cylinder 2l engine. It's a big engine by any standard.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Jun 21st, 2008 at 06:26:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome a Paris: My Espace (a large family MPV) has a 4-cylinder 2l engine. It's a big engine by any standard.

Thanks for the reality check:

Lawmakers lobbying Chinese govt for small car incentives? at China Car Times

Lawmakers in Beijing appear to be lobbying the government to introduce incentives to further the small car market in China. Last year just over 700,000 small cars (i.e. cars with engines less than 1.3l) were sold in China, which accounted for only 11.6% of total vehicle sales in China. High gasoline prices, and worsening air pollution seems to be the major factor in pushing for incentives to ignite the small car market. The sales of small displacement cars in China did actually fall in 2007, whilst larger sedan sales rose. Furthermore, Chinese consumers only bought 250,000 vehicles in 2007 that had a displacement of less than 1000cc. The lobbying lawmakers are asking the central government to lower, or cancel sales taxes on small displacement vehicles, make road tax cheaper and perhaps even introduce free parking zones for super mini drivers.


... all progress depends on the unreasonable mensch.
(apologies to G.B. Shaw)
by marco on Sat Jun 21st, 2008 at 09:25:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But are there any statistics for the carbon cost of trashing and replacing still-working vehicles (whose manufacture-related emissions could be considered a "sunk cost") with new ones, relative to the carbon saved by the more efficient engines?

I'm not much in favour of bailing people out of foreseeably stupid and irresponsible decisions like buying an SUV for private use, unless the benefits to the whole of society are both clear and substantial.

Are they?

by Sassafras on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 11:05:17 AM EST
I was just going to ask how many years of use would there need to be for society to gain a net energy advantage out of getting the individual a new car out of their usual buying cycle?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 02:01:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sure there are stats on how much energy it takes to make a new vehicle, but there are several forces at work.

One is to reduce demand relatively quickly to bring down the price (assuming that's what is keeping oil high). It is hard to quantify how much making oil cheaper in Africa is "worth" under these circumstances.

Another is to give a boost to auto production which is (still) a big factor in the US economy when there is a downturn. This would also provide an incentive to automakers to switch to more efficient production sooner than the new standards mandate. This is also hard to quantify.

California had a program to buy back old junkers that were on the road a few years ago to help lower pollution. I think this was regarded as a "good thing" without a rigorous cost/benefit analysis.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 02:45:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How long before fuel rationing hits in Europe and the U.S.?

Given the lack of refinery capacity, the instability risk in the M.E., ongoing demand growth from East Asia, the "inelastic" demand curve (hah!), and our respectively disfunctional political systems, it sure seems like we will all run into retail shortfalls within a few years at most.

My bet is rationing in the U.S. in three years.

by asdf on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 06:47:12 PM EST
How would the next president bring that in without guaranteeing a win for the opposing party?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 07:12:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If option A. is that only the rich people have gas, and option B. is that everybody has a small amount, I think that even in the U.S. option B. would eventually win out...
by asdf on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 10:30:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
then again maybe not. in america about 70% of the population thinks its only a matter of working 100 or more hours a week and in a decade they will be rich too. they are so brainwashed by the right wing they dont even know what is in their own interest anymore


Life is not a dress rehearsal
by johnfire (johnfire@christopherrehm.com) on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 05:44:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There was a similar proposal by Amory Lovins in the late 70's, where he showed that because the gas guzzlers lost value, they ended up in the hands of poor people.  He proposed some system, i can't remember how it worked, where the gas guzzlers would be repurchased from the owners at a net savings in energy to the gov.

Too busy celebrating to search to see what's on the net from those days, but it was a widely distributed proposal.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 06:34:35 PM EST
Let the pricks that bought Hummers eat them.  Realtors, dentists, business turds trying to dodge income taxes by buying a huge vehicle don't need tax incentives from my pocket.

I'd rather offer big incentives on hybrids or any vehicle getting >30 MPG for those on low incomes instead.  Let the price of those Hummers go to zero.

by HiD on Fri Jun 20th, 2008 at 06:01:56 AM EST
While we're about it, reorganize and repaint all parking bays and parking slots to accommodate only small vehicles with tight turning circles.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Jun 20th, 2008 at 06:38:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
they'll just take 2 spaces.  
by HiD on Fri Jun 20th, 2008 at 04:48:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If they can find two end-to-end or side-by-side spaces.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Jun 20th, 2008 at 05:42:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's your solution for the poor, especially the rural poor, who are still driving say a 1988 Ford E-150 getting 24l/100 and can't afford any of this?

Sounds like yet another bail out for middle class stupidity more than anything else.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sat Jun 21st, 2008 at 12:07:18 PM EST
Discussed here and here. What is your solution? I don't think anyone has proposed one yet.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 21st, 2008 at 01:12:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mass transit.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Sat Jun 21st, 2008 at 01:49:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How much of it? From those threads:
Drew has linked to maps by the NYT on the impact of oil prices by county. The county that spends the highest fraction of its income on gas is Wilcox County, Alabama. Wikipedia has the census data on Wilcox County: 13 thousand people on 2500 square kilometres. The County seat is a town of 2250 and maybe one other town in the county has more than 500 people. Google maps satellite pictures show a mosaic of shades of green and ochre indicating it's divided up into farms. I'm guessing maybe up to 1/2 of the population of the county lives in the towns and he rest live on farms, with houses a kilometre away from each other in some areas?


When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 21st, 2008 at 01:54:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A lot. The US is easily 50 years behind most of the rest of the OECD. Not that anyone in the US noticed.

In France, you can get from anywhere to anywhere by some combination of bus, train, subway, tram or ferry.

In the US, this is simply not true. And not just for very rural places like you mention, but damn near every urban/suburban/exurban area as well.

Incidentally, if you all were looking for exhibit  a in what the resident German conservative, Martin, was calling Salon Socialism, this is it.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sat Jun 21st, 2008 at 03:09:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've found the Northeast to be much better than France, at least those parts which I'm most familiar with. That's especially true for rail which is virtually non existent outside the major intercity lines, but even if you take buses into account. I've gotten to even small towns in the exurbs and beyond by rail and bus in the Northeast. In France I've had to rely on parents and friends with cars or hitchhiking. I don't drive so I tend to be rather aware to this sort of stuff.
by MarekNYC on Sat Jun 21st, 2008 at 03:22:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It actually often is possible, but the information is very badly organised ; as a result even the locals don't know about it (more so for the locals since in rural areas they always have a car). And you might end up in the school bus. Two buses a day happen quite often.

And France is of a rather low density compared even to the NorthEast of the US.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sat Jun 21st, 2008 at 09:08:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"What's your solution for the poor, especially the rural poor, who are still driving say a 1988 Ford E-150 getting 24l/100 and can't afford any of this?"

An essential point is to separate the issue of having a low income from the issue of using excess oil. It is true (and will become especially apparent this winter in the American Northeast when the high cost of heating oil causes people to literally freeze to death) that low income people suffer first. That's one of the problems of being poor.

Society has support programs for poor people, inadequate as they may be. But it's a two-way street, so to speak. If one chooses to live in a rural area, and the cost of transportation becomes unaffordable, then the obvious answer is to travel less. That's how it was in the bad old days, and that's how it will be in the future (until our long-promised flying cars arrive).

If you read about people who lived in Kansas, say, even as recently as the 1930s, one thing that stands out is that they Just Didn't Go Anywhere. For example, read "Letters from the Dust Bowl" by Caroline Henderson. They went for weeks without visiting their "nearby" town, and years without leaving the state.

Even in the 1950s it was a big deal to go from, say, Denver to Steamboat (Rabbit Ears Pass was paved in 1950), and my well-off grandfather went to Europe exactly two times in his life: Once as a soldier in the first world war, and once as a tourist.

Basic solution to expensive transportation: Don't transport stuff.

by asdf on Sat Jun 21st, 2008 at 01:21:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I note though that these issues tend to come up solely through the lens of the middle and upper-middle class interests.

And I wonder why this is...

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sat Jun 21st, 2008 at 01:50:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've been following your theme in the comments, but you are missing the point I was trying to make.

The objective of my suggestion was not to compensate people for doing things that were ultimately anti-social, but to lower the cost to society in general.

That there may be some who are bigger winners than others is not the central concern, in fact every policy we have is slanted this way. Take the most popular one by the Republicans, a tax break for some activity. Right now there is one which proposes a break to buy health insurance. Obviously those in the 35% bracket get more value than someone who pays no taxes. So the aim that the tax break will make health insurance more affordable is a fraud. It's a giveback to those who least need the help.

However, getting gas guzzlers off the road faster will lower demand in general which will benefit everyone since fuel prices will go down as a result (or at least rise more slowly).

Sometimes you have to create unequal incentives to promote a greater good.

There is nothing stopping you from proposing a modification of my plan that would cover those whom you highlighted.

Your objections are just another variant on the libertarian viewpoint that people should suffer from their own misfortunes, even those beyond their control.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Sat Jun 21st, 2008 at 05:17:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not so. But the well-to-do (and this includes the US middle class) should not have their consumption (and mistakes) subsidized by (ultimately) the poor in China whose labor is used to finance that consumption and those mistakes.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Sat Jun 21st, 2008 at 10:23:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Truth is that most owners of Hummers could afford to eat the difference between blue book and what they can sell it for: it is about the actual value of the tax break they got for buying it.  My accountant showed me how a married person making $125,000/year could qualify for the earned income tax credit by buying a Hummer, with the tax incentives then in effect.  I believe that was in 2007.

Far from them needing breaks, we have already given them breaks at the IRS.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Jun 22nd, 2008 at 12:38:33 AM EST


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