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What do you think?

by PerCLupi Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 08:21:01 AM EST

I've always been a citizen of the world, and especially pro-European. I am already old, but I would like to contribute to the emergence of a European consciousness and a European community. Although I did not live to reach that.
For some time, I'm thinking about that. And I think that knowing aspects of European culture can contribute to the emergence of such consciousness of common belonging.

When we talk about culture, we usually think of art, literature and customs... But I thought that there are certain works of science or thought, which would shape a common European acquis. For example, there is a little work of Archimedes, which provides an extraordinary approach to the value of π, or the famous article of Émile Zola "J'accuse". These two works -the one in ancient Greek, the other in French- and other similar in other languages (such as text which sets out the theory of universal gravitation in latin...) could form part of that common acquis, with whom we would all Europeans concerned.

In ET, we could go presenting (in original language with English translation), little by little, some of these pieces (without excluding art, music, customs...) as a common European fund.

What do you think about this?

I am translating Archimedes, with textual and scientific notation. My work on "The measurement of the circle" (little work, with the value of π) brings textual criticism and it has a certain value. I would be delighted to offer this work to that ET'fund.

Do I am an old man being in one's dotage? :-D


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What do I think? I think it's a great idea! Building an Open Source Common European Cultural Heritage:it's brilliant! We could start and test it here and then involve other European bloggers or networks, maybe using Wiki format.

We could even get the support of the European Union!

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 08:36:19 AM EST
I like the name of the series.
by PerCLupi on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 10:11:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We must design a method (maybe some kind of rating or vote) to decide if a proposed element (be it a text or a picture, or a song) is really part of the common "cultural acquis", especially if we plan to open this approach to a wider set of contributors.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 08:46:11 AM EST
Of course. I am able to produce in a short time, as an example, the two things I mentioned: Archimedes and "J'accuse" I have them on my computer.
:-D
by PerCLupi on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 10:10:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As a first element of method, I think we should propose works from authors (composers, thinkers, artists...) from other countries than ours and that we feel are fundamental parts of our personal culture. For example, as a French, I would not propose a text from Victor Hugo, but I would propose something from Shakespeare or Dante...


"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 10:20:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Agreed. But "J'accuse" was an article that influenced a lot. And there are those who still think it are worth.

Everything will come.

by PerCLupi on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 10:55:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree and I approve your choice. I do not oppose Zola and Shakespeare. What I meant is a text from Zola should be proposed by a Spaniard (or an Italian, or a German...) who feels, like you do, it is an important part of his/her culture, but not by a French. As an example, I would gladly propose Don Quijote de la Mancha, because it is  an important element of my European culture.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 11:10:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I find it excellent that perspective. Thus, it avoided the particularism of the own one.
by PerCLupi on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 11:17:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It could be very interesting indeed. Particularly coming from a spontaneously-linked group like ET, rather than some formal instance or academic organism.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 09:01:27 AM EST
Particularly coming from a spontaneously-linked group like ET

True. I got tired of the "official rules".

by PerCLupi on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 10:17:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I like this idea very much.  As always, I stand to gain much more than I can contribute, but it seems to me that is the very idea.  If each of us puts our penny in the fountain, pretty soon there is a fortune available to all.

We all bleed the same color.
by budr on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 09:35:02 AM EST
You're all crazy, that's for sure. Just enumerating those texts (say, with one link each) would be an enormous undertaking. The mind shudders, just in the field of mathematics, Pythagore, Newton, Lagrange, Fermat, Gauss, etc, etc...

This being said, I can't wait for Archimedes' text !

by balbuz on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 09:58:02 AM EST
I don't think we should try to build an encyclopedia, just to identify what cultural elements we have in common. And it would really make sense if it is shared with many other Europeans.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 10:14:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am still working on the diagram of the EU structure - specifically, at this moment, the European Parliament. I hope that such a project could also fit into this cultural wiki - because the EU structure (and solidarity) is the thing that unites us.

It is really slow going at the moment. I haven't yet found a visual metaphor that would really aid in simplifying the dynamics of the Parliament, to bring insight to a wider audience. The story needs time (animation) and interactivity. But I am close now to a 3D spatial diagram that would then require different parts of it to become interactive buttons that pop-up to explain detail. Linca has promised to help with coding, and Migu is working on other areaa.

I am using the physical symbol of the hemicycle on which the chamber of the EU parliament is based.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 03:45:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Blessed madness! I think I have age to make follies. And I love crazy like this. They could be significant passages. When I mentioned the universal gravitation, I do not refer to the entire work of Newton. And I think that science should be included. I'm tired that, when we talk about culture, science is not mentioned. I could already submit Archimedes. But how to insert graphics in the Diaries it has not been explained to me by my baby.
by PerCLupi on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 10:37:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You know, you mentioned being a old man repeatedly. Somehow I get a picture of you of being somewhere between 80 and eternity, with a white beard siting in front of the computer. :-)
by Fran on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 01:22:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am psychologically old. I am 62 years old. And in English we all men are always old. I do not know how to insert my picture from my file.
by PerCLupi on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 03:22:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You need to upload your photo to a picture hosting site such as Photobucket. First you become a free member. Then follow the instructions to upload your photo there.

Your photo gets a unique URL from the site. Copy that URL into your ET comment box. Then check out the new user guide and select 'how do I embed a picture'. Copy it, paste into the comment, and then replace the 'dummy' url with the one you copied from photobucket. Delete any crap. You're good, Preview first ;-)


You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 03:35:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OMG, you are only 62. According to Ayurveda that's mid-life, just getting started. :-) Besides if you consider yourself an old man, I have to start to see myself as an old woman - and I absolutely refuse to do that.
by Fran on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 04:51:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fran, yoga becomes you ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 05:11:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
PerCLupi, I have seen you refer to physical illness in earlier posts.  Being ill can make one feel much older than one's years.  It can also leave one depressed.

I am 65 years old and my poor body shows the wear, arthritis, a resection of the colon, loss of the right lower lobe of my lung, etc.  I can still do some physical labor.  My memory is still intact, so far as I can tell, but the recall time has gotten  longer and less reliable, especially for recent memories. My mood has improved since I moved from L.A. to northern Arkansas.

I very much like your idea, my problem being my own incompetence in the three or four other languages of which I have a smattering.  The works of our common heritage I know almost exclusively in translation.  I suppose I could propose translations for inclusion.  I have seen you reference Sanskrit in some of your linguistic comments.  

I would suggest that the Vedas are a part of our common Indo-European Heritage. In that vein I will propose inclusion of the Swami Prabhavananda/Fredrick Manchester translation of The Upanishads, especially the Katha Upanishad.  My own copy is an old  paperback Mentor Classic.  I have often found it to be a balm to my soul.  

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Jul 3rd, 2008 at 10:33:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ARGeezer, there was no intention of offending in my comment, neither towards PerCLupi nor toward you or somebody in a similar situation.

Aging is a topic I very interested in, obviously, as I am accumulating years of living and experince myself. However, I have been observing a phenomenon with people as they become older - that becoming older is also, and for me mainly, a state of mind. Physical problems all of a sudden are associated with age, though younger people might have the same kind of problems. Being tired is all of a sudden associated with age, when earlier it was stress or work or.... whatever, but not age.

About the slower memory, well, I like the metaphor I once read  - the mind is like a computer, when its new it is fast retrieving information, but as you save more information on the hard disk, it takes longer to find the it again. I like to think that the mind functions the same way and that taking longer to remember something is a sign for a much vaster database that has to be searched. :-)

Oh, and I am aware that I am kidding myself to a certain degree. But I also firmly believe that our thoughts and expectations do have a tendency to be self-fullfilling.

To repeat, I consider age primarily to be a state of mind, and one sign of aging for me is the refusal to learn new things - for example, many of my friends refuse to learn about computers, or new languages or... because they are now of a certain age. Age also becomes an excuse. So, definitely, according to my definition you and PerCLupi are still youthful, as you are open to new and challenging experiences - like posting here on ET. :-D

by Fran on Fri Jul 4th, 2008 at 01:07:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fran, my concern is that you might have thought you were giving offense.  I saw compassion.  I agree with what you have said about age being a state of mind, although it is to some extent affected by how we deal with our bodies.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Jul 4th, 2008 at 12:40:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll start (following the rule: no one from your own country):

Hobbes
Adam Smith
Max Weber
Janos Kornai

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Jul 4th, 2008 at 06:25:52 PM EST
I think that these four authors are critical. Clearly Hobbes (Leviathan), Adam Smith, and the great Max Weber.
I think the Hungarian János Kornai is a good proposal. The Economics of Shortage is essential.
by PerCLupi on Sat Jul 5th, 2008 at 03:23:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How is 'Weber' pronounced? Is it vay-ber?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Jul 5th, 2008 at 03:28:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He is German. Weber [béber], I thinh.
by PerCLupi on Sat Jul 5th, 2008 at 03:52:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems that this idea could be interesting. It would be necessary to organize its entry into work.

Melanchthon, budr and afew have been the first enthusiastic. Can I suggest that you are who establish definitively how we should act? My skills with computers are very poor. I would be more a pawn for the game that you specify.

What steps are followed? How authors are nominated? How is voted? What rules? And so on.

I think that the four proposals by Jérôme are clear.
I think that my proposals, for the moment, (Arquímedes, Π; and Émile Zola "J'accuse", a brave and highly influential attack on the "abuse of power", "the national interest" and anti-Semitism) are valid.

We must begin to act! On the way we can review. :-D

by PerCLupi on Sat Jul 5th, 2008 at 03:48:56 PM EST


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