Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Aaaaahhhhhhhhh!! I'm sorry this is my first diary.

by jjellin Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 08:35:45 AM EST

I am this close to tears.  Just saw this article about Cushing Academy, a fancy prep school in Massachusetts that is . . .

is . . .

GETTING RID OF ITS LIBRARY BOOKS!!    They are apparently not only planning to go digital all the way, but they are actually giving away or selling their books.  They are going to rearrange things and turn the old library into a "learning center" or something.

I'm about to throw up.  

a_library_without_the_books


God, I'm sorry.  THis is not much of a diary, but I don't know where else to turn.  I guess I'm hoping to find some sympathy here on ET, and perhaps some insight.

I can't believe it.

I grew up and grew intellectually as a child hanging out on the floor in between the stacks at the public library.  I felt bad when libraries got rid of their card catalogs (wooden drawers, 3x5 cards), but this just feels more like the beginning of an end.  

We recoil in horror at the thought of some authoritarian burning books, but getting rid of the school library is somehow okay?

I suppose it is ironic that I am here online complaining about the fact that the school children are going to be forced to go  online for their digital  text encounters.

I have to apologize in advance for having to diary and run this morning.  If anyone sees this  and comments, my ability to respond today will be very spotty.

I just had to vent about this, so thanks for listening.

What does it all mean?

Display:
It is going to take some time to get used to this.
by jjellin on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 08:46:22 AM EST
European Tribune - Aaaaahhhhhhhhh!! I'm sorry this is my first diary.
I just had to vent about this, so thanks for listening.

I for one totally hear your cry of pain.

All that wealth just an outdated media format? How truly sad.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 05:28:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Having lost an eye in recent times, reading stuff on-line is much easier for me than most print and so I read very little print any more.  Obviously copying and pasting and following interesting links/lines of enquiry is also much easier on-line.  I would be an advocate of giving every school kid a laptop and digitising a lot of course materials but that is largely because teaching is of such variable quality and invariable aimed at some notional average or lowest common denominator which rarely suits most people.

Having said all that, I think the school library is still one of a school's most important resources and a love of books is a quite distinct accomplishment to doing on-line research/learning.  There is an unavoidable social aspect to learning and creating a learning environment and a physical book is still something to be cherished.  Bizarrely, it is still one of my life's ambitions to write a book even though I now rarely read them from cover to cover.


notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 08:54:25 AM EST
Frank Schnittger:
 Bizarrely, it is still one of my life's ambitions to write a book even though I now rarely read them from cover to cover.

heh, i have the same goal with a cd!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 01:01:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
most start 0100110100100110101.... ;)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 02:05:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Knowing Melo, his will be different.  He writes to a different code, swings to a different tune and jives to his own rhythm...

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 02:14:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yup, it's true, though there's always a tinge of blue.

ceebs is right though, in the end it will be 1's and 0's just the same.

just bits, better than unjust ones anyways...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 06:28:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A library without the books - The Boston Globe

"...A lot us are wondering how this changes the dignity of the library, and why we can't move to increase digital resources while keeping the books."

...administrators said the books took up too much space and that there was nowhere else on campus to stock them.

(above) In place of the stacks, they are spending $42,000 on three large flat-screen TVs that will project data from the Internet and $20,000 on special laptop-friendly study carrels. Where the reference desk was, they are building a $50,000 coffee shop that will include a $12,000 cappuccino machine.

And to replace those old pulpy devices that have transmitted information since Johannes Gutenberg invented the printing press in the 1400s, they have spent $10,000 to buy 18 electronic readers made by Amazon.com and Sony.

They needed the space, y'understand. Eighteen students at most will be able to read books they chose themselves. But there's this side to it:

"When you hear the word `library,' you think of books,'' Alliy said. "But very few students actually read them."

At a rough guess, this change isn't going to get them reading any more than before.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 09:05:55 AM EST
If you're providing laptop access to the WWW you don't need a physical space like a library to do it, so I don't get the space utilisation argument at all.  They appear to be spending more money on providing coffee than technology in any case, so is the real agenda to provide a recreational area for rich kids?

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 09:12:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Frank Schnittger:
a recreational area for rich kids
Isn't that what prep schools and private universities are?

See Krugman's futuristic writing looking back to 1996 from the end of the 21st century: Krugman and the end of the Industrial State

The famous universities mostly did manage to cope, but only by changing their character and reverting to an older role. Today a place like Harvard is, as it was in the 19th century, more of a social institution than a scholarly one -- a place for the children of the wealthy to refine their social graces and make friends with others of the same class.


En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 09:21:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course there is a limitation of physical space:

A library without the books - The Boston Globe

And to replace those old pulpy devices that have transmitted information since Johannes Gutenberg invented the printing press in the 1400s, they have spent $10,000 to buy 18 electronic readers made by Amazon.com and Sony. Administrators plan to distribute the readers, which they're stocking with digital material, to students looking to spend more time with literature.

A library without the books - The Boston Globe

He said the move raises at least two concerns: Many of the books on electronic readers and the Internet aren't free and it may become more difficult for students to happen on books with the serendipity made possible by physical browsing. There's also the question of the durability of electronic readers.

"Unless every student has a Kindle and an unlimited budget, I don't see how that need is going to be met,'' Fiels said. "Books are not a waste of space, and they won't be until a digital book can tolerate as much sand, survive a coffee spill, and have unlimited power. When that happens, there will be next to no difference between that and a book.''

You can not allowed to wander off with those expensive electronic readers and you can not very well be allowed to copy the material to your personal reader in case you might copy it further. Intellectual property, you know.

And thus the versatile, easily copied books are replaced by digital scrolls to be kept under lock and key.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 10:20:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Books are already kept under lock and key.

Access to journals is many journals is rationed to universities. If you're lucky you can find an ATHENS password somewhere, but otherwise if you're not an academic you can forget about reading JSTOR or anything else you can't buy at Borders.

Access to books that are out of print is also rationed to universities. If I want a copy of something scholarly that wasn't published recently, I have to go find a friendly local university and hope that they operate an open access scheme for outsiders.

This is likely to cost me money, and there's a reasonable chance I'm going to need to be formally ID'd by someone reputable, like a lawyer. (sic.)

Electronic readers are a stupid idea, and I don't think they're likely to last. I'd guess tablet PCs are going to get slimmer and lighter, and eventually they'll replace both paper and dedicated readers.

And it's not as if books actually last all that long. If you print on parchment or acid free paper you can expect a reasonable shelf-life, but most modern paperbacks use cheap paper stock. I have books from twenty years ago that are already very fragile and impossible to read without damage.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 08:45:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At my alma mater as a lowly first year student I could:
  • browse the open collections which included recent journals, reference books and the recent phd thesises. (Actually this is accesible to the general public as no student card was required)
  • from the library catalogue order out any book or journal in the library (student card required). And for a reasonable fee make as many copies as I liked.
  • borrow and bring home any book printed after a certain year.

The accessability is worse when the library chooses to buy electronic books instead.

As a non-student I am limited to the pretty vast collective collections of the local libraries that can order any book from each other with a few days wait. So if any local library has it I can borrow it. Or I could just enroll in another university course. (Did I mention education is free in Sweden?).

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Sep 5th, 2009 at 10:57:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Accessibility is only worse if the implementation is poor. We didn't have literal fights over books on my course, but the library typically had one (1) copy of every book. If you needed that copy you either had to be first in line, you had to wait, or you had to do without.

It's not hard to see how electronic copies would improve on that. With Google Books - or some variant - all you need is a browser. Once you have an electronic copy, you have an infinite number of electronic copies.

Aside from politics and lack of imagination, there's no reason why there shouldn't be exactly one library in the world, with local mirrors.

An online library that offered instant access to copies of everything ever published, without exception, would be a hugely useful thing. And the technology to do this is already available now.

There are also curatorial advantages. You can leave valuable folios in climate controlled storage while still giving readers open access to the words and images in them.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Sep 5th, 2009 at 11:10:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course, but that is not what is being implemented at the libraries I know of. And it is down to politics, more specifically the politics of copyright.

Regarding journals Open Access is slowly but steadfastly winning ground in different academic institutions. So there we might see access through bypassing the established gate-keepers.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Sep 5th, 2009 at 12:33:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A swedish kind of death:
Of course, but that is not what is being implemented at the libraries I know of.

I'm sure it isn't, but I think it's inevitable in the medium term. It's not actually possible to secure electronic data in any useful way. Any protection scheme can be cracked or circumvented. For example it's not hard to find fairly obscure CDs that used to live in library collections available online in torrents.

In the same way that iTunes stopped using DRM after a few years, I think it's inevitable that the current fad for Kindles and whatevers is going to die within a year or three.

Combine that with Open Access, and you have - open access.

What's missing is automatic torrenting. Currently to share a torrent you have to decide - manually - that you are going to put it online, or continue to seed after you've downloaded it. This makes it your torrent. Which is not entirely a good thing.

Within the next few years someone is going to realise that torrents can be cloudified. Everyone will seed slices of random anonymised files that could contain any content by anybody. The original uploader will remain anonymous.

Once that happens, torrents will start to remain available for perpetuity. People will start putting cloud torrent servers online. The copyright police won't be able to do anything, short of breaking down doors, because uploading, seeding and downloading will be completely anonymous.

Not long after that, someone else will realise that this really is a viable model for a world library.

This will transform publishing into something very different. This won't be an easy thing and may not be an entirely good one. But I think it's inevitable now.

It may also transform universities. Currently a large part of the rationale for universities is that people go where the books are.

If the books are everywhere, that's going to need a rethink.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Sep 5th, 2009 at 06:43:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not sure if this is exactly what you meant, but about 10 years ago now, my brother put one of my unpublished papers online.  I can't even remember how he did it exactly.  I don't know where it "lives" online, but apparently it is still one of the first things that comes up when my name is googled, or so I have been told.  That seems like in perpetuity to me.
by jjellin on Sun Sep 6th, 2009 at 08:45:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
European Tribune - Aaaaahhhhhhhhh!! I'm sorry this is my first diary.
card catalogs (wooden drawers, 3x5 cards)

How well I remember - that was the modern, new-fangled system at the Bodleian Library, Oxford. At one time as a grad student I was employed ordering up from the stacks original seventeenth-century broadsheets and tracts for a researcher. The only available catalogues were handwritten in great leatherbound tomes made in the nineteenth century. The pages had been cut out of older catalogues and pasted into the new. The handwriting was eighteenth-century. I spent so much time examining and reading the catalogues that I, er, was slightly remiss in ordering stuff for the researcher. Oh well.

But that was yesterday, and I am (obviously) a three-centuries-old vampire.
 

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 09:24:31 AM EST
pre-windows cut and paste? wow.  you are old.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 09:39:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Love it.  I never knew what was used before 3x5 cards; never thought of them as an innovation.  Now see that's the kind of thing that could drive me crazy.  Now I want to know who thought of putting information on 3x5 cards and organizing them both alphabetically and topically.  
by jjellin on Sun Sep 6th, 2009 at 08:49:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My guess would be Melvil Dewey or one of his fellow reformers.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Sep 7th, 2009 at 03:28:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't find it, but we've had this argument before.  So not going through this again...

Someone have a link to that discussion?  Mig?

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 12:36:40 PM EST
poemless:
So not going through this again...

Then why do you comment at all in this diary? I enjoyed reading it.

by Fran on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 12:44:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was hoping someone could find a link to the previous diary about this so I didn't have to type everything all over again.  Migeru often does that when the topic of one diary has already been discussed in depth in a previous one.  It's good for reference.  But Google isn't turning it up for me, and I don't remember the name of the diary.

All that said, I do think the points made in that discussion are valuable and would prove a lot of information for the diarist here.

It's really not a terribly uncommon phenomenon here Fran.  We can't assume everyone has read everything already posted.  Instead of your rhetorical question you could be helping me locate the previous diary.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 12:49:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think - though I am speculating - that Fran misread your sigh and "So not going through this again..." as a reference to the topic, not the problems of locating the previous diary. As in "Sigh, are we having this discusion again..."

Otherwise, I have just misread Fran. (And someone else can jump in to interpret, be misread and the someone else can jump in ...)

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 01:13:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, you understood my comment correctly. Thanks!
by Fran on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 01:18:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Found it!

A discussion of Google books, books in libraries, etc.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 12:56:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've read part of that discussion but haven't found an answer to the question bugging me.  Google appears to have gotten (US) legal sanction to digitise books whose copyright it odes not own.  Does that legal ruling also allow it to charge for access to the digital books without reimbursing the copyright owners?

As a general aside, US courts appear to have a habit of allowing US companies free access to non US assets with no regard for the asset owners - patents, research findings, brand names etc.  This has always seemed to me to be the most insidious aspect of US imperialism.  We have a right to take what we want because we rule...

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 01:31:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does that legal ruling also allow it to charge for access to the digital books without reimbursing the copyright owners?

And who, exactly, is going to stop Google from charging royalties on properties it neither owns nor paid for?  

What we have here--as was mentioned--is digital information being put, ultimately, under corporate lock and key.  And that corporation, seemingly, will be Google.  

(BTW royalties rarely help artists, but do help the corporations who can seize and distribute their work.  We need to give up the whole idea of intellectual property--as it does not give good results.)  

We are looking at an intellectual dark age.  I had not expected to live to see it, but my last trip to a suburban bookstore has persuaded me the dark age has arrived already.  The books still exist, but they are consumed--not read.  The cappuccino is already taking precedence.  

Be your own monk and preserve what you think is worth saving.  Everything not thus saved by someone who cares about it will go.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Sat Sep 5th, 2009 at 03:19:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I'm going to still keep my books and I have no plans to buy a digital reader. I think Frank got this right when he commented that "the real agenda to provide a recreational area for rich kids".

Since they are not reading anyways, why have books? Since we seem in many ways to be headed back to a new feudal age, why even teach reading? An illiterate population is easier to control than a literate one. An illiterate ruler can be controlled by the literate church.

Reading is thinking. America, at least, does not seem to want thinkers. Rather, my country wants consumers — consumers of digital media.

In a current library journal, not sure which one, D.J. Hoek, Head of the Music Library at Northwestern University, discusses how music is becoming unavailable to library patrons because iTunes and other electronic distribution mechanisms explicitly only allows the final end-user to download music. He writes that now music is becoming legally unavailable to both libraries and archives.

The written word, it would seem, will disappear too behind a corporate curtain too. Consume forever.

by Magnifico on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 01:41:11 PM EST
Over the last several decades, there have been continuous legal attempts to enforce Music licencing, and stop the resale of CDs and records. Its always failed on consumer rights law, because the customer owns a solid object, but without a solid object the second hand market dissappears.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 02:33:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On the other hand, the completely free market emerged out of thin air.

On the broader topic, there is no reason for the publishing industry not to go the same way as the record industry. They're less powerful anyway, and while amazon is trying to wall off - what's the term -the info space? (the ability to gain knowledge of something's existence) - I don't think they'll succeed. Once we start getting sophisticated search agents, proprietary databases like amazon lose their utility, and authors can go solo.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 05:15:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Magnifico:
He writes that now music is becoming legally unavailable to both libraries and archives.

It's becoming illegally unavailable instead.

Not to libraries and archives, of course. But then - as I said before - libraries and archives, in the UK at least, don't offer much in the way of public access either.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Sep 5th, 2009 at 11:15:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I used to know someone who offered an up-market interior design service. She would literally buy books by the yard at auctions - grabbing whatever rubbish was going, as long as it was old and leather-bound, because it looked like a library to her City clients.

She had a few yards in her own house. The historical fact of holding a two hundred year old title was interesting, the content often less so.

I have way, way too many paper books in the house. I have way, way too many books on hard disk too, but they don't take up nearly as much space, which makes them easier to live with.

I also have a 30" monitor, and it's easier to read books on a big display than it is to read them in print.

Publishing has already become MBA-ised over the last couple of decades, so exotic or creative work is getting much less shelf space than it used to.

However, there are sites that promote - and pay for - new writing online, and I suspect we'll be seeing more of those in the future, perhaps linked to blogs and forums. So the idea of a 'book' is going to fade, and be replaced by more amorphous writing.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 05:49:09 PM EST
I actually know someone who used that little decorating trick.  Well, she wasn't/isn't a reader of any sort and she felt old books gave her room the look she wanted, and I suppose there is a kind of sincerity in that.  I had to bite my tongue--hard--when she told me straight out what she was doing.  Interestingly, one of the books she parked on the shelf actually had meaning to her because it had belonged to her grandmother, a charming tome on true womanhood.
by jjellin on Sun Sep 6th, 2009 at 08:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cushing Academy, which is not by the way one of the top-tier prep schools in New England, costs close to US$50,000 for your child to attend as a boarding student, for one year: http://www.cushing.org/admission/tuition.shtml.

This is so depressing I don't know what to think about it.

by Mnemosyne on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 06:33:16 PM EST
I would not get too upset until Phillips Academy library decides to dump its books. After all, that's where our political power structure starts...

"The Oliver Wendell Holmes library was built in 1929 and thoroughly renovated in 1987... The library offers students an in-house collection of more than 120,000 fiction and non-fiction books... The Garver Reference Room is home to the OWHL's extraordinary 6,500 volume print reference collection. Included are specialized dictionaries, encyclopedias, and atlases, as well as biographical, statistical and indexing resources, both current and historical..."
http://www.andover.edu/library/About/Pages/default.aspx

by asdf on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 07:34:16 PM EST
What a proper high school library looks like...

by asdf on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 07:36:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, yes.  The chandeliers.  No high school library should be without them.
by jjellin on Sun Sep 6th, 2009 at 09:01:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Properly Empty?

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Mon Sep 7th, 2009 at 02:50:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What are these "libraries" you guys keep talking about?

(I keed, I keed.)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Sep 4th, 2009 at 10:34:03 PM EST
But books can be used for so much more than a Kindle....

PIC_0037.JPG

by PeWi on Sat Sep 5th, 2009 at 06:34:56 AM EST
Wow, PeWi - s/he looks cute and reminds me of the father. :-) Hope the entire family is well?

That looks like a good use for a book, one can never get aquainted with books early enough, in my opinion.

by Fran on Sat Sep 5th, 2009 at 07:15:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
She certainly has developed a taste for books.... (and I would have plenty more pictures to bore you with (-:  )

And the red hair, well, we both have it, but then she is getting lighter and lighter in the moment.

by PeWi on Sat Sep 5th, 2009 at 07:22:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would enjoy for you to bore me with pictures of her. Why don't you post more in the Photoblog, from time to time at least. :-)
by Fran on Sat Sep 5th, 2009 at 07:26:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you aware of her blog - or shall I email you the link?
by PeWi on Sat Sep 5th, 2009 at 09:11:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow! SHE has a blog??!!!!!! yes I would enjoy seeing it, so please send me the link. :-)
by Fran on Sat Sep 5th, 2009 at 09:27:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
She'd obviously read the title before getting down to business!

Lovely picture, PeWi!

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 5th, 2009 at 07:54:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
given the money the school has available, the sapce argument is unconvincing. But it does beg the question about school libraries. My school was a very good one, still features in the top 10 in the country by results, but the library was a total waste of time and this was the 70s when people still read books. The books were out of date and largely irrelevant. If you wanted to access a book you went to the public library down the road.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Sep 5th, 2009 at 06:48:36 AM EST
Come to think of it, my school never had a library. But then all the parents were academics, doctors, lawyers, etc (As the headmaster proudly said, when my eldest brother got onto that school) and so it was probably assumed, that the kids got enough books at home.
by PeWi on Sat Sep 5th, 2009 at 07:16:38 AM EST
is easier that way!
In my youth even twenty years ago some brilliant scientist posted ads touting plans for such unknown(at that time) devices like the tazer and ultrasonic pain inducing devices which are of course now the weapons of choice for crowd control at G20 and Bilderberg meetings.  
by Lasthorseman on Sun Sep 6th, 2009 at 11:07:00 PM EST
Right.  Books?   We never had books in this "library."  What are you talking about?
by jjellin on Tue Sep 8th, 2009 at 08:09:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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