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What we stand for: Qualitativism

by Cyrille Fri Oct 1st, 2010 at 05:27:29 PM EST

As I explained in my earlier diary What we stand for: Quasi-Rawlsian ethics, I am trying to clarify our identity by highlighting common positions that we, as a group, overwhelmingly share.

I was going to touch about today's subject in a diary about the quest for sustainability, but comments by JakeS convinced me that it needed to stand on its own, as its roots were not merely -nay, not mostly, in the need for sustainability.

JakeS explained our not being productivists in those words: "There is a level of economic activity that would satisfy us, and it is for most of us somewhat below the current level of economic activity in The WestTM - or at least not greatly beyond it."

This is certainly a fair description of us as a group. To risk new words, I'd venture that we are exponents of Qualitativism vs Productivism and Consumerism


A newcomer to this site might be surprised by how matter-of-factly is a point of view stated here that would probably appear quite controversial in most circles: that GDP is an almost meaningless metric. I realise that one or two posters defended it to some extent on the grounds that it was probably nicer to live in Norway than in Zimbabwe (only the keenest sun lovers would dispute that), but most of us feel almost obliged to add a few words of excuse when making a point based on GDP.

This is but one manifestation (albeit a very visible one) of a rather distinctive trait, that we overwhelmingly share, that takes us apart from the dominant discourse, whether left or right, namely that we do not tend to be productivists or consumerists to anything like the extent shown in the mainstream discourses.

Much of the political promise from both the left and the right (those who know me know how much I believe such categorisation to be outdated, but let me use it for once) revolves around the promise of more production and consumption. The right will talk of more consumption for the successful entrepreneurs (and often act simply for more consumption for the rich and the politically connected, you knew I could not avoid that rant didn't you?), and claim that this will maximise total production. The left will talk about enabling more consumption for the less favoured classes, and help ensure that more gets produced through state incentives and, sometimes, direct state production. Some countries do not even have a leftist discourse, merely arguing over ways to best promote investment.
We do not tend to state extra consumption (certainly not aggregate consumption) as a major goal today in the developed world -or then, not consumption of things that are produced (spare time, clean air, friendship and talks through the night when watching the stars are all things that we reckon could be "consumed" more). To be fair, this is not quite a unique position, even in the political discourse, as now some parties give a voice to the idea that more production is the wrong target. It remains a fringe position, though, as evidenced by the fact that it is not one held by a major party in any bipartite system I can think of.

This view is, though, almost seen as demonstrably obvious in those pages. For the sake of a recently joined reader, I will try to summarise a few of the reasons that make us reject the goal of productivism in general, and its flagship GDP in particular. No doubt much more convincing points will be made in the comments.

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GDP is an odd way of keeping score. It attempts to put a value to the sum total of all that is being produced and traded within a country. Not as a net result over a period of time -only the aggregate of the production part. So, repairing something that just got broken is part of GDP, provided that someone is paying for it. Being paid to clean a house that I have sullied adds to GDP, in a way that not sullying it in the first place does not. An industry with a dirty process that pays to get half of its emissions cleaned away will add more to GDP than one that managed to avoid the pollution altogether -even though the outcome is still dirtier air. Resource depletion doesn't even get a passing mention.
And you need the money exchange for it to count. If I were to invite you to the restaurant, I'd add to GDP, but not in the more likely event that I would actually cook for you (though it would have to be a damn good restaurant for the former to present you with a better meal). Helping each other just for the sake of it? My, let's not get into that.

You get the picture. GDP is not a totally useless indicator, but it's so far off being accurate as to render its use among somewhat similarly developed countries almost pointless. A higher GDP may just as much be the sign of less social interaction as of bigger activity.

Besides, while I mentioned in passing the issues with pollution and resource depletion, I did not even get into one resource that should matter a great deal in whatever social evaluation we attempt: you, I, people in short. Until people are utterly and completely useless in the production of anything -which will never happen since we can always teach, write, tend to the elderly... - the maximisation of production will require the minimisation of non-productive time.
OK, we could play some semantics. One might argue that all time is productive, if we stretch the word "production" far enough to include producing rest from a good night sleep, fun from a light-hearted conversation with friends, warmth from a hug... If the word was to be thus stretched, I think you'll find most of us to be quite productivist.

But that's not how it's understood. And the dominant view here is that, in the developed world at least, we are chasing the wrong target. Yes, many of us want more stuff, but the main reason why we do is not that it would really make us happy, rather that there is a whole industry designed to make us believe that it would.
Chasing a higher production level is pushing through some very unpleasant choices. The environment is badly stretched. Workers are put through enormous pressure. We are taught to behave as individualists. Whole cities are turned into artificial attraction parks. Workdays are long, and often involve very long commute, because jobs don't last as long these days so it's difficult to make sure you live close to work.

And for what? Well, I'm not too sure. More toys, probably. But none leaves such a lasting memory as the ones we had when they didn't change so often. More food is not really a positive in the developed world -indeed it leads to spending to get thinner. Stress related diseases seem more frequent.
Most of us at ET feel that "more toys" is not such a great prospect as to be willing to sacrifice everything for it. Should we add to GDP, we'd rather have more yoga classes than more horsepower in a car -or even a car in the first place, for quite a few of us. We tend to strive for more meaning in life, rather than for more consumption goods. It is something that we can, to an extent, practise ourselves, but mostly it is a desire for a society which helps this. We stand for a, for want of a better word, "qualitativist" society.

This is not to say that there are not people, in our society, who would greatly benefit from more consumption, and indeed we stand for helping them do so -this gets us back to our Rawlsian tendencies which I wrote about earlier. Yet this would need no increase in aggregate production. Indeed, it may be argued that their plight is one tool of the maximisation of production, since it helps convince precarious workers to work hard and not complain much. Well, as a group, we'd rather they were better treated, from the existing pie or even a slightly smaller one. There is easily enough to feed everyone in the world decently, and even have the basics. In developed countries, there could be a roof for everyone even if production shrank 50%. That this is not the case is not due to a lack of aggregate consumption / production.

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Before I conclude, let me point out the obvious and state that we are no angels. We may reject consumerism as a doctrine, yet most of us do consume far more than we should -far more than would be sustainable for 6 billion humans to do so. Mostly, we travel too much. While some (like me), try their utmost to avoid flying whenever possible, others have a significant frequent flyer card. And even avoiding planes, the number of my Eurostar trips is embarrassing. Several of us rarely cook. We probably could repair our clothes a little longer before getting new ones. We tend to have much more electronic equipment than we need -and in fact I am using some of it to type right now. And some of us work much too long hours to accommodate for the quantity of social interaction we'd advocate.

Yet I don't think that this invalidates our rejection of consumerism. Quite to the point, I don't think any of us would define himself by his wealth. Some of us are quite successful , but it probably is not the main goal for any of us (yes, I grudgingly include the investment bankers of the community in that comment ;-) ).
Most of all, we have to make do with the society we were born in. We may try to move it somewhat, but mostly it will affect our behaviours. Most of us would welcome more social interaction, but this cannot be decided unilaterally. We need others to be available for it to happen of course, but also many of us have specialties where the system will not let you work short hours. We would be quite willing to sacrifice a little in order to breathe clean air, but this is one of many decisions that cannot be made by individuals and need to be a society choice. This is an agenda that we strongly advocate, and that we are looking for ways to promote.

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Thanks very much for this series, which will help clarify our agenda.


You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Oct 2nd, 2010 at 06:11:30 AM EST
Thank you for the encouragement.

May I take this opportunity to spell out that, obviously, the series does not belong to me and that I would quite welcome if someone else were to write an entry.
I'd just like two things in that case:
-That we could have them all linked from a series heading. Not sure how to do that -we used to have occasional series but they seem to have gone.
-That the writer would contact me by email to let me know he's preparing that subject so I don't do it.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sat Oct 2nd, 2010 at 06:55:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
great series, watching group identity form, like a flower out of the mud, or a mushroom lifting many times its weight of cement, indeed cracking through it.

i find what you are articulating to be reminiscent of a 70's movement called 'voluntary simplicity' centred round stewart brand and kevin kelly's 'co-evolution quarterly', periodical offshoot of the epic 'whole earth catalog'. there were many articles by bateson, shumacher pointing forward to what we are discussing here and now.

i totally share your conviction, cyrille, that there is enough for everyone, it is a distribution problem, more than one of pure resource limits, and some would have one believe for their own agendas.

the other memory this evokes is that of zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance, pirsig's 'metaphysics of quality', maybe chris will chime in and flesh this out a bit.

the bete noir is 'consumerism', per se. as long as we keep trying to float whole economies on the dubious seas of 'consumer confidence', 'xmas retail surges' and the like we are doomed to repeat the same arch=follies we have become so emaoured of and addicted to. and worse, we are modeling this unsustainable, obsolete paradigm to thousands of millions of 'new consumers' (barf).

the worst enemies to progress, apart from the financial hijinx we all belabour here so thoroughly, are the concepts of 'planned obsolescence', slave labour, and the calvinist worship of work for work's sake.

work may and should be as ennobling as love or art, but to deify it above all other gods is as foolish as deifying its chief symbol, money.

yes this must be communicated as both a pragmatic as well as a -merely- :)) moral issue. only then will people whose faculties have not acquired such luxuriously rigorous levels of self-examination can see that even the most myopic, self-centred agendas depend upon such givens as drinkable water, fit air, and balanced lives.

seeing as peeps only see what they are paid to take on board, the answer probably consists in creating new ways to grab their atomised attention span, and ride a message in on the back of something they already let through their filters.

discussing goals is creative use of time and candlepower, uniting around themes and messages and spinning them in a good way, since spin is inevitably part of messaging.

studying the moral hinges creaking in the series 'madmen' is illuminating, i find, as we are all still swimming in the gluey amber of those attitudes, they are our roots, and heavily infested ones they are too!

reverse engineering society's moral codices is not for the faint of heart, we can use all the help we can get.  

tibetan philosophy holds that the way up is the same one we came down, another reason that people won't listen to some new idea unless they're being entertained at the same time...

like who listens to the air hostess explaining how the safety equipment works before take-off?

portugese peasants... that's the endgame, but networked this time around.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Oct 2nd, 2010 at 09:59:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Brand and his projects were a considerable influence upon me. Viewed from an English provincial town, 50s/60s California seemed the smartest place on Earth. The energy there was going into innovation, whereas in England it was going into overturning the Establishment - the strangled innovation bit came later (white heat of technology).

Working in CA for the first time in '68, it seemed to me that that flowering - if it ever existed - was over. Because my wonderful picture of California had been so selective. What I thought was a revolution was only an infinitesimal part of the State culture.

If I had to choose a place today (using the same selectivity), I would choose Uudenmaa - the southern state of Finland. If quasi-Rawlsian ethics and Qualitativism are 2 things we stand for, then they stand for Uudenmaa too.

Disclaimer: the state is a sometime client of mine.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Oct 2nd, 2010 at 12:11:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i didn't get to Ca till 75, and it was still jumping with alternativity, though the bloom was definitely off the haight st rose, and 'wasted' stopped being a euphemism and became a description.

still the can-do thing was jamming, there was an immensely freer, more playful energy in the air than  ever seen in england. europe seemed mired in narcissistic cerebrality, endless smoky discussion about zombie ideologies and murky loyalties...

the whole earth catalogue crystallised everything admirable about america then.

the west coast has always had an intense counterculture, to match the equally intense military industrial complex entrenched there.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Oct 2nd, 2010 at 03:01:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... its just not the score of the game.

Its like watching the tachometer to tell what speed you are going, without knowing what gear you are in. Its just a measure of total spending on newly produced stuff. Its not a measure of economic productivity, its not a measure of net new real wealth, ...

... someone using GDP to assess standard of living is like a nurse trying to measure my Blood Pressure with a thermometer. Its inability to do that is no failing of the thermometer ~ but of the nurse using the wrong tool for the job.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Oct 3rd, 2010 at 01:38:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or you could read what JakeS says right down there, as I obviously had not yet done.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Oct 3rd, 2010 at 01:41:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it is worthwhile to spell out explicitly that attacking GDPism is a much more limited goal than attacking productivism. A productivist can easily share many or most of our criticisms of GDP as The One True Proxy without sharing our view that GrowthTM is not unequivocally good.

GDP is a useful indicator - it would be difficult to do economic planning without that indicator. As the diary points out, there are several caveats in interpreting it: Rebuilding a house knocked down by a storm increases GDP, because the house didn't count when it was standing up; raw materials are presumed to be worthless; and those informal favours and pleasures of other people's company which are judged to be too trivial to count as income for tax purposes are discounted.

The two former could actually be resolved by using the net domestic product instead of the gross. The net domestic product includes amortisation of assets, which includes depletion of non-renewable raw materials. However, amortisation of assets is for the overwhelming part a purely internal process on the balance sheet of an economic actor, so getting reality-based data for it is a real PITA.

But the fundamental problem with GDP is not that it's a bad indicator. The fundamental problem with GDP is actually not a problem with GDP at all. It is the universal problem inherent in elevating any single indicator to The One True Proxy. There is no law in econometrics more ironclad than the observation that the value of an indicator as a proxy is inversely proportional to the amount of political attention being paid to it.

Not because politicians are stupid and pick the wrong indicators, but because once you become fixated on The One True Proxy, you are liable to use it as a proxy for variables that it really cannot reliably reproduce - such as using GDP as a proxy for overall societal achievement. If you become fixated on The One True Proxy, you are also much more likely to enact policies that target the proxy, rather than the causal mechanism that made the proxy useful in the first place. Lowering the fever is much easier than curing the patient - and breaking the thermometer is even easier.

A second technical point is that many common uses of GDP implicitly assume that price can be used as a proxy for value. The theoretical justification for this only really makes sense under conditions that do not obtain in any modern economy - namely, if consumer wants are independently established and well-behaved, and producers maximise discounted profits (and there is a well-behaved financial sector which arrives at a uniform discount rate). In a planned economy GDP is a different sort of beast (still useful, just for different things). And all modern economies are substantially planned economies, although the sovereign may not be the entity doing the planning.

Moving beyond the technical problems with GDP, there is another technical problem with national accounts, in that financial assets are counted as capital. That capital and financial assets are not equivalent is actually another point that might confuse new readers: Capital is the physical means of production - financial asssets are promises of command over the physical means of production, or their products, at some future date. The two are only interchangeable if the financial sector is well-behaved. Which it stops being almost immediately when policymakers start assuming that it is, because keeping the financial sector well-behaved requires constant political vigilance.

Further, and staying in the national accounts, production of goods and services that are free at the point of delivery is, by definition, assumed to make no profit. There is a technical reason for this: Goods and services that are provided free of charge are assigned a virtual price, which is then booked as production income for the producer of the free good or service, as a subsidy (expense) for the producer and as a gift (income) for the consumer of the service. This virtual price is, by definition, equal to the cost of production.

While this does sort of make sense, it means that there is a bias against free stuff in the GDP calculation. Imagine that, instead of having a public hospital system to treat patients, we outsource hospital services to a wholly owned subsidiary of the national retirement fund, pay them out of income taxes (which are secondary allocation, and thus do not enter into the computation of GDP), and use the profits to defray the outlays on retirement benefits that would ordinarily accrue from general revenue. The hospitals are the same. The staff is the same. The patients are the same. The cash that actually changes hands is the same, except for some accounting technicalities purely within the consolidated sovereign balance sheet and cash flow. But this game of three-card monte has magically increased GDP by the full profits that the national retirement fund accrues from owning hospitals...

All of the above exposition is a purely technical one that any student of economics, regardless of ideology, should be able to follow. So, as should be obvious, GDPism has far more problems than productivism: GDPism is a subset of productivism, which means that all the diary's excellent criticisms against productivism apply with full force to GDPism, on top of the technical problems outlined above.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Oct 2nd, 2010 at 06:33:33 AM EST
The above exposition points to two further issues that may confuse newcomers:

  1. A substantial fraction of ET regulars are persuaded that WesternTM economies - indeed all modern economies - are best described as planned economies rather than market economies (and that the dichotomy between market and planned economies is a somewhat artificial one).

  2. Financial assets are not capital. Money in the bank is not wealth. Shares in the stock market are not wealth. Those things are command over wealth, but only if that wealth actually exists in the first place. This is taken to be obvious by most ET discussion, but it is not a part of the Conventional Wisdom of the larger society.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.
by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Oct 2nd, 2010 at 06:40:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"I think it is worthwhile to spell out explicitly that attacking GDPism is a much more limited goal than attacking productivism."

I fully agree -but well, it's the flagship and this was intended for a new reader. I wanted to quickly show how some things that are taken for granted in the mainstream media are actually very artificial.

You are quite right that a detailed position on productivism is a more complex issue, one that I didn't think I could entirely address. If my entry were to spark such a discussion, though, I would be very glad.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sat Oct 2nd, 2010 at 06:48:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are quite right that a detailed position on productivism is a more complex issue, one that I didn't think I could entirely address.

I think you actually do it very well, which is why I didn't comment on that part ;-P

I particularly liked this bit (my emphasis):

Chasing a higher production level is pushing through some very unpleasant choices. The environment is badly stretched. Workers are put through enormous pressure. We are taught to behave as individualists. Whole cities are turned into artificial attraction parks. Workdays are long, and often involve very long commute, because jobs don't last as long these days so it's difficult to make sure you live close to work.

And for what? Well, I'm not too sure. More toys, probably. [...] Most of us at ET feel that "more toys" is not such a great prospect as to be willing to sacrifice everything for it.

The only thing I'd change would be to make a clearer distinction between the first three paragraphs in the middle section, which are technical problems with GDPism, and the last three paragraphs of the same section, which are ideological charges against productivism.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Oct 2nd, 2010 at 07:05:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ever since I have joined ET, I have been embarrassed by my lack of contribution. It was a combination of lack of relevant topics where I thought I would be among those most suited to address (a problem partly arising from getting a lot of my information from the site -of course, the threshold changes once the intended readers are among the world at large rather than the regulars), definitely lack of time, and some level of writer's block.

So, I've been embarrassed. But at the moment, thanks to the kind people who have recommended them, there are two articles bearing my name in the upper right column. And one of them has even been frontpaged.

That makes me somewhat proud :-)

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sat Oct 2nd, 2010 at 03:14:39 PM EST
You should be proud - without denigrating other people's contributions over the years - of trying to set a wide context for the ET agenda that includes the humanities.

Write what you know - or think you know (I do) ;-) IMO every subject has some relevance to ET simply because anything that interests an ET member becomes a community interest - even in disagreement.

The difficulty is that we don't always have a clear separation between community stuff (play) and what we want to analyse and externalize (work). This can be confusing for newcomers.

Hopefully the series you have begun will lead to a more concise message of ET's intent - a mission statement if you will - that might exclude a few visitors, but clarify our stance for a lot more people in a way that motivates greater involvement.

I am particularly concerned that it is not clear that there are many ways to contribute to ET. We have a wide talent base, but we havent yet found a way to use the potential.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Oct 2nd, 2010 at 04:42:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
most of us feel almost obliged to add a few words of excuse when making a point based on GDP

Roared with laughter when I read that.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sun Oct 3rd, 2010 at 12:50:59 AM EST
This is but one manifestation (albeit a very visible one) of a rather distinctive trait, that we overwhelmingly share, that takes us apart from the dominant discourse, whether left or right, namely that we do not tend to be productivists or consumerists to anything like the extent shown in the mainstream discourses.

I think most of us here grasp the idea, if not the fact, it requires 2 additional planets to supply the energy and materials required bring the entire world to the average living standard of Canada [Mathis Wackernagel,'How big is our ecological footprint?,' Real World No. 16 (Summer 1996)].  

An obvious physical impossibility given our technology.

There's enough high tech savvy 'round here to squash any science fiction fantasy of an uber-Maschine or Unobtainium lurking in a research laboratory, ready spring out and suddenly Fix Everything.

No.  We realize we gots what we gots ... and we are trying to Deal With It.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sun Oct 3rd, 2010 at 01:29:56 AM EST
Well, that is the sustainability part of it. As I explained, I was initially going to talk about our rejection of consumerism when addressing sustainability, but after reading JakeS comments in the first diary I reckoned that sustainability was only one reason.

Even if it could be done with only one planet, most of us would probably not advocate more production / consumption as a target to obsess about.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sun Oct 3rd, 2010 at 03:29:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I missed the part where a replacement metric is suggested...
by asdf on Mon Oct 4th, 2010 at 09:22:26 AM EST
The replacement metric for GDP? Is not part of the problem that we have a single metric for just about anything?

If it is the material well being of a population you want, then I suggest national wealth/capita (and better to look at median then average). National wealth being the sum of stuff within the borders. This was as I understand it the dominant metric before GDP, and was probably abandoned because GDP is so available: just check the total tax bases from the stats collected by the tax office.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Oct 4th, 2010 at 01:41:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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