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The Hydrogen dream

by Luis de Sousa Tue Jan 24th, 2012 at 03:59:10 PM EST

Last week I went to Longwy's university campus, the Institut Universitaire de Technologie (part of the University of Lorraine), for a conference on renewable energies and energy efficiency. It was an event integrated in an InterReg project for innovation, called Tigre, gathering institutions from Lorraine, Saarland, Luxembourg and Wallonie. It kicked off with a session on Tri-generation, and went on with parallel sessions on waste Biomass and on Hydrogen and Fuel Cells. I opted for the later, feeling really curious on the present state of research on this field.

Cesare Marchetti proposed hydrogen (H2) as a large scale energy vector almost fifty years ago. Then the concern was mainly to find a simple enough way to feed transport systems with what seemed to be a fountain of energy about to come from the expanding Nuclear park. The Nuclear dream is largely gone, but hydrogen lives on. Is it about to come true as a piece in the transition puzzle to a post-fossil fuel world? That's what I was expecting to know.


Home concept

Today the hydrogen dream is very different from Marchetti's. It starts with a home, self-reliant, grid-disconnected, housing micro-generation systems, mostly solar and wind, that primarily feed the electrical system. Then surplus energy is converted into hydrogen and stored in a container in special division of the house. This hydrogen can later be used to generate electricity through a fuel cell when the micro-systems do not match the instantaneous power needs; the waste heat generated by the fuel cell can also be used to heat the house. Finally this hydrogen can be used to feed one or more vehicles powered by fuel cells. A general presentation along these lines opened the session by the hand of Sophie Didierjean from the University of Lorraine.

There is an obvious philosophical dimension to this dream, that I wont explore here, for technical aspects are enough to question it. This dream is in a way an attempt to save Suburbia in the US, that was successfully exported to Europe. It happens that here Suburbia is rather the exception than the norm, in Europe suburbs are synonym of cheap vertical housing, where most folk park their vehicles in the streets and commute by mass transit.

There is then another important issue, which is financing. For a new house this technology pipeline can easily increase costs by 50%, on a rough estimate, to which adds the increased cost of vehicles. These cost increases translate themselves into higher debt levels that with present day interest rates can be a killer. For grid connected solutions we have feed-in tariffs that anticipate financial returns and offload investor risk, but for disconnected solutions this isn't the case. The case can be posed for directed subsidies to the acquisition of disconnected technologies, but it misses the social contract the feed-in tariffs force, guaranteeing that micro-producers are the most effective possible, favouring higher net energy; this is something much harder to accomplish with disconnected solutions. Once again this can easily become a philosophical discussion, should Society finance a system that translates into a detach from it?

Hydrolysis

Going straight to the crux of the matter, I'll jump to Volker Loos, from the Fachhochschule of Trier, who gave a general presentation on the possibilities of H2 as an energy vector. I'll have to start from the finish, since it was at the Q&A session of this talk that the critical question came from the audience: the efficiency of hydrolysis today. At best this figure can approach 80% for a water temperature between 70 ºC and 80 ºC. Not bad, but the problem is that the process of H2 usage has just begun, after that comes compression, storage in a container, decompression and electrochemical processing through a fuel cell or by combustion. In all these steps there are mass and energy losses that further cut efficiency, the end result is far from mature electrical storage technologies like back pumping in dams or magnetic flywheels, and also from other emerging technologies like large scale compressed air storage.

Another thing worth retaining from this presentation is the idea of injecting H2 generated at renewable energy parks into the natural gas supply grid. If there is a way I can see H2 working out is this, there are only two conversion steps in the process: hydrolysis and combustion, apart from that it is also important that most of the infrastructure is already in place. The idea is quite simple: using the natural gas grid as a large buffer when demand isn't there for the electricity generated by renewables. The obstacles I see to this scheme are in first place the suitability of the grid, designed to transport a considerably heavier molecule (methane) thus perhaps permeable to H2, raising security and efficiency questions. And finally the whole efficiency of the process: assuming best case 80% for hydrolysis, no mass losses and 60% for a combined cycle combustion the end result is below 50%.

Finally Volker Loos referred that several auto-makers have plans to introduce fuel cell powered cars in the following years: Mercedes in 2014, Toyota and General Motors in 2015 and Volkswagen in 2020. The price of these cars is at this time estimated to be 20% over that of present day hybrids. To be seen what the impact of the increased demand for platinum will be on these estimates.

Platinum

And to talk about Platinum was Nathalie Job from the Universiy of Liège, an institution presently doing research on synthetic carbons to produce electron conductors for fuels cells. These conductors should both reduce the rate of platinum used per fuel cell and increase its life time. The details of this work can easily go into electrochemical aspects that are well outside my knowledge realm. A read of this article may help you get a better idea of this research is about.

Nevertheless, one can have an idea of how important this issue is with basic algebra. Platinum is one of a handful of metals known by Men that are denser than gold, found in the crust in about the same abundance of the latter. But it is much harder to find and mine, thus its annual production is about 10% of that of gold, in the order of 200 tones. Every year close to 60 million cars are produced in the world, if all of them required the usage of platinum, those 200 tones would translate into little over 3 grams (about 0.15 cm3) per car; fuels cells require in the order of 0.5 grams of platinum per W of power output. Any massification of fuel cells shall require totally platinum free technology.

Chemical storage

Still on the chemical side of things was Yaroslav Filinchuk from the Catholic University of Louvain. He came to present a theoretical concept for the storage of H2 using borohydrides, an highly reactive, porous material, that can store light gases. The basic idea is to use hollow spaces that the molecular structures of these materials create to "lock" inside smaller molecules. The main advantage is the possibility of storing H2 at ambient temperatures, thus avoiding energy losses in compression/decompression or liquefaction/gasification processes. They may also reduce mass losses during storage, but once again my knowledge is thin on the field, so I recommend again a closer reading of a recent article on the subject.

Continuous electrical generation

Ending the session was a host speaker, Angel Scipioni from the IUT, presenting the energy mix of France. It was mostly a generalist address with lots of interesting numbers cast here and there, clearly showing that the largest state of the EU has lagged somewhat behind on the build up of renewable infrastructure (because it has a huge Nuclear park). What struck me was a direct reference to Peak Oil, but in the past tense, as an additional reason for a transition to renewables and H2. Even though acknowledging it, Angel Scipioni seemed not give much importance to it, stating that France had so far copped well with higher petrol and diesel prices. I wonder how spread this sort of view is; in any case a reminder of how long the awareness raising process still has to go.

Angel Scipioni finished his talked quickly explaining a research project presently in place at the IUT. The idea is to combine different renewable energy technologies with H2 generation and storage to build a system capable of continuous electrical generation. The concept uses, for instance, technologies that generate electricity from low speed winds. One day I'd like to see an net energy assessment of such system.

Conclusion

So the Hydrogen dream lives on. Where will these research projects lead? Are all of them in vain? Perhaps not, but hydrogen continuously appears somewhat behind alternative technologies; for a massification of it is use as an energy carrier nothing short of a revolution will do. On many regards huge steps forward will have to come up in order to bring efficiency into a comfortable zone. With several other technologies closing on maturity, there doesn't seem to be much time left. And finally, whenever I reflect upon hydrogen I'm always somewhat baffled on why molecules like ammonia (heavier) or methanol (heavier and less hazardous) aren't preferred as energy carriers.

Display:
The philosophical basis strikes me as being a case of plain old tax evasion - Offgrid technologies can often reach parity with the enduser price of power, because the bulk of that price is in fact taxes, and while getting offgrid gets you out of paying them legally, it doesnt actually reduce the amount of revenue the state needs to collect at all, so all you are doing is freeloading. Further, it is also likely to have highly undesirable psycological and political consequences. If you are living off grid thanks to a set of sophisticated production and storage technologies, you are, in the end, every bit as dependant on the rest of society for power as you are when living hooked up to the grid, because you can neither manufacture nor repair any of it. But it becomes much easier to ignore that dependancy, and the very last thing the world needs is more libertarians who belive they can do without society.
by Thomas on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 06:31:04 AM EST
The "hydrogen economy" has always struck me as a solution lacking a problem. Indeed, I'd like to know if there is an energy storage/restitution problem that isn't better addressed by compressed air, which is indeed maturing rapidly into commercial applications.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 08:02:55 AM EST
The "hydrogen economy" has always struck me as a solution lacking a problem.

That's a sharp way to put it. Marchetti himself veered towards methanol in the later days of his career, when it became clear the Nuclear revolution wouldn't happen. He associated hydrogen to his concept of energy islands, that if realized could be producing huge amounts of energy; hydrogen was just a simple way to get this energy to big cities.

luis_de_sousa@mastodon.social

by Luis de Sousa (luis[dot]de[dot]sousa[at]protonmail[dot]ch) on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 08:14:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Compressed air has significant fundamental limits to efficiency much higher than those for electrochemical storage technologies.  I think the gravity storage Thomas linked to a while back is more promising (if completely unproven).
by njh on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 12:42:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
True as that may be, I wonder whether compressed air isn't what's called for in much of the industrial sector. A lot of machinery already works off compressed air or hydraulic pressure, but used a relatively small vessel to create the "power supply."  

The easiest example of this being something like a nail gun that runs off tubing linked to a compressor that's small enough to be carted around by hand.  It takes maybe 5-10 minutes to load, and then tops itself off when depleted, which generally takes only a few minutes of continous use.

Where you have existing, natural features that could be used to store large amounts of compressed air you could conceibly use them as a massive version of the compressor that you can cart around by hand. And with smart grid technology, you can use this to push down peak electric loads.

What I'd be most interested to know is if there's a way to apply the same principle to fluids.  Greater density would seem to apply the same power storage in a much smaller area.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 12:59:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Compressed air does have a relatively high mechanical power storage, but it's not so great for efficiency.  Hydraulic pressure can be stored - it's called hydroelectricity (but is really hydrogravitational storage).  You can't store liquids 'under pressure' because they are essentially incompressible and hence you can't do any useful work on them.  There are large scale compressed air storage systems: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_energy_storage

All existing large scale systems get < 50% round trip efficiency IIRC.

by njh on Sat Jan 28th, 2012 at 01:44:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
European Tribune - The Hydrogen dream
should Society finance a system that translates into a detach from it?

whoa... let's parse that.

'Society' is all of us, and 'detachment' is relative, it's not like going off grid makes you a hermit or an outcast!

'Society' has an extremely valid interest in decoupling from the unnecessary and expensive dependence from coal plants and, just as bad, import dependence from other countries who don't always have our interests in mind, (especially seeing our history in respecting their rights).

 few people go offgrid anyway, as tie-in obviates the whole problem of batteries, hydrogen cells or whatever, all of which will be pricey.

thanks for the interesting diary, Luis.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 09:23:10 AM EST
Luis
These cost increases translate themselves into higher debt levels that with present day interest rates can be a killer.

Actually, especially in the USA with ZIRP, present interest rates are highly favorable. The problem is availability of credit and, related, the perceived stability of current rates.

Thanks for the diary.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 10:56:00 AM EST
Hi Geezer. Right now in Portugal the interest rates on micro-generation projects is about 6.5% due to some bonus by the state. Regular borrowing costs are around 8%.

luis_de_sousa@mastodon.social
by Luis de Sousa (luis[dot]de[dot]sousa[at]protonmail[dot]ch) on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 12:03:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow! 8% when there is a dearth of creditworthy projects. Sorta like a spear in the side when you are already being crucified. Must make the IMF proud.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 11:57:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes interest rates are low, but I think that the market for renewable energy tech in the US is being seriously undermined by shale gas.

In the new issue of Wired, Julie Eilperin writes that clean-technology investment is in the throes of going bust, at least in the United States. That includes solar, wind and biofuels. A U.S. presidential election year and the continuing Solyndra bankruptcy scandal are combining to seriously undercut federal subsidies, she reports. As usual, China is providing stiff competition (the New York Times' Charles Duhigg and Keith Bradsher produce a long, must-read dive into why China and not the U.S. is likely to continue to dominate manufacturing). But the main culprit is cheap natural gas, Eilperin asserts. The shale gas boom, allowing for electricity prices of 10 cents a kilowatt-hour, has eroded the chances of solar and wind to compete.

As discussed over the weekend, Citi Group analyst Edward Morse concludes that shale gas (pictured above, part of a hydraulic fracturing operation in South Montrose, Pa.) could fuel a U.S. industrial renaissance, specifically in energy-intensive products such as chemicals, plastics and housewares. But to the degree that Morse is right, it is coming at a cost, which is a "clean tech meltdown."

Iberdrola just dropped 50 jobs from their American operations. Despite the favorable finance situation, I think that shale gas has changed the demand situation for renewables in the US. I've been thinking that a diary on this is in order. Shale gas is a relatively mature technology in the US, but it's still in its infancy in Europe.  Poland is potentially a huge source of shale gas for the rest of the Continent.  If there's a spike in shale gas production in Europe like in the US, my impression is that the market for renewables would sour as well.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 01:07:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hi, TheOilDrum had your tipical anti-wind post last week that discusses this in more detail. What most folk are missing is that shale gas is not in the least commercially feasible with the sort of prices they have today in the US. According to the figures the industry has been providing to the supervising authorities most operations require a price north of 7 $/Mcf to be viable. In fact the US is living a process of gas supply destruction, propelled by the production of associated gas in oil fields. Also at TheOilDrum there's a recent article explaining this dynamic.

In Europe I remain sceptical regarding large developments in shale gas. Giving our much higher population density, any sort of water table contamination can mean that the next days many thousands of folk are left without potable water. To be seen how can this will play out.

luis_de_sousa@mastodon.social
by Luis de Sousa (luis[dot]de[dot]sousa[at]protonmail[dot]ch) on Sat Jan 28th, 2012 at 04:38:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Shale gas is a HUGE development, but it's arguably a bubble fueled by constant credit and equity injections from Wall Street, not something that is profitable in its own right, not at current prices at least. The biggest shale player, Chesapeake Energy, recently announced it would be idling a not inconsiderable fraction of its gas wells due to low prices.

The big focus today is the so called "liquid-rich" gas shales, where you get condensate and stuff like that from the ground, which you sell not as gas but as oil.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sat Jan 28th, 2012 at 05:34:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've seen the damage that fracking does. I see shale gas as a bubble to.  But, I think that in the short term it's lowered gas prices enough that it's having a huge impact in the market for new wind farms in the US. The fear that I have is that countries that rely upon shale gas to delay the development of renewables are going to end up in a situation where shale gas is either depleted, or finally gets shut down due to the environmental damage it does.  And the contraction of the gas supply drives up electric prices, but there is a reticence to develop new projects because of the market history.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Jan 30th, 2012 at 06:27:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And bear in mind that shale gas does not have the "bell curve" production dynamics of petroleum ~ if a shale gas play plays out, it can as easily be a sudden drop in output as a slow decline.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Wed Feb 1st, 2012 at 04:21:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know if you'll read this since I'm responding so late.  

But....  my expectation is that the shale gas industry is ramping up the US for an oh shit moment that could have been avoided if gas prices had been kept high in order to faciliate investment in wind.

When the price of gas goes up, new wind farms will too.  But, there's going to be a lot of economic hardship that could have been avoided by doing this right the first time around.


And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2012 at 10:11:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And finally, whenever I reflect upon hydrogen I'm always somewhat baffled on why molecules like ammonia (heavier) or methanol (heavier and less hazardous) aren't preferred as energy carriers.

Because the only emission is water dontcherknow! </snark>

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 11:36:33 AM EST
Methanol would burn cleanly, not so much ammonia. If you synthesize alcohols from atmospheric CO2, the process is carbon-neutral.

We had a claim earlier that dimethyl ether should be a candidate for an energy carrier.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 11:47:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not a matter of burning (hideously inefficient for all but heating applications) but about fuel cells. Apparently it's really hard to build a good ammonia fuel cell.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 11:54:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Presumably an ammonia cell would produce nitrous oxide?

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 12:26:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Research seems to be ongoing, but it seems that direct ammonia fuel cells may be high temperature. I came across a description of a "moderate" temperature approach, where that implies ~500C, with ammonia cracked to H2 and N2, used in an alkaline fuel cell, which has good rejection of unprocessed traces of ammonia, with the exhaust gas burned to heat the cracker.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Jan 27th, 2012 at 07:21:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, note from this source that ammonia can be a reducing agent for 2*NOx->N2+O2 with a proper catalyst, with some base metal catalysts working in the 450C to 800C range. Since an ammonia fuel cell would obviously have an ongoing supply of ammonia for that reducing reaction, it seems like good NOx control ought to be possible for the combustion of the exhaust hydrogen to drive the cracker.

The temperature for the base metal catalyst seems to support the 2*NH3->N2+3*H2 cracking approach I noted above for an alkaline fuel cell that works well in the 500C range ~ the gas over the catalyst would already by in the right temperature range.

A lot of this is that hydrogen fuel cells have been pursued for quite a long while, and the push to develop the technologies for ammonia as an easier to control and manage hydrogen carrier seems to be substantially more recent.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jan 29th, 2012 at 12:14:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ammonia <-> Hydrogen+Nitrogen  storage has been studied in detail and is considered practical but unproven on a large scale.  Avoiding mixing with air has many advantages too (avoid contamination of the air and of the cells) and NH3 and N2 +H2 take up roughly the same volume*pressure allowing the same storage to be used for charged and discharged fuels (you can store H2 and N2 mixed together safely at room temp, they only burn with a catalyst or high temps).
by njh on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 12:52:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
DME I do believe in, as an energy vector for heavy vehicles. It can be used in slightly modified diesel engines, and be made out of everything from coal to black liquor.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Thu Jan 26th, 2012 at 03:18:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Er... if the process emits CO2 where is it coming from?

luis_de_sousa@mastodon.social
by Luis de Sousa (luis[dot]de[dot]sousa[at]protonmail[dot]ch) on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 12:04:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which process?

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 12:26:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The process. The whole pipeline to use H2/CH4/NH3. You start with electricity and end up with work, if CO2 is coming out then it must enter the process at some point, n'est pas?

luis_de_sousa@mastodon.social
by Luis de Sousa (luis[dot]de[dot]sousa[at]protonmail[dot]ch) on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 12:47:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, I'm lost. Where in your diary is that pipeline? What is the (unique?) process?

There are many hydrogen fuel cell technologies, depending on the electrolytes used. I don't think many involve "a pipeline to use H2/CH4/NH3".

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 12:51:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Given that H2 is only an ineffective gaseous energy store at present, whether or not there is CO2 depends on how the power is produced. Such an inefficient energy store makes it more difficult to accomplish tasks on any given renewable energy budget and more likely that non-renewable energy is required as an energy source.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 10:27:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think anybody who is enthusiastic about the hydrogen economy should go into a lab and try to make even a simple system leakproof. And then try to translate that system into a production version that can be made in volume, maintained at realistic cost, and have a lifetime of a decade or so without failing...
by asdf on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 02:05:39 PM EST
Yes, AFAIU, this is one of the arguments favoring NH3 as a hydrogen energy store: the problem that H2 is such a slippery little bugger.

NH3 fuel cells may be tricky, but its a bottleneck: the difficulty in keeping H2 from leaking is an across the board challenge to fabrication and installation technology across the entire fuel supply chain.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Wed Jan 25th, 2012 at 10:32:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
European Tribune - The Hydrogen dream
And finally, whenever I reflect upon hydrogen I'm always somewhat baffled on why molecules like ammonia (heavier) or methanol (heavier and less hazardous) aren't preferred as energy carriers.

I don't know about in general, but at least in Sweden there is some projects to use forest-produced chemicals as biofuels, among them methanol for the purpose of using them as liquid fuels. I think the general idea is that forestry has better EROI then agriculture.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Jan 28th, 2012 at 05:01:07 AM EST
Well, most of these proposals amount to converting the waste products of foresty operations to fuel, not dedicated energy crops. As such, the EROI is nigh-infinite - the energy is used regardless to produce timber, and then you turn the garbage you wind up with into fuel. This logic only holds as long as your supply of sawdust ect does, tough. Coppicing entirely for fuel was abandoned for good reasons.
by Thomas on Sat Jan 28th, 2012 at 05:25:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You can't use waste products from forestry to do that, at least not in Sweden, as we fuel all our local CHP-facilities with forestry waste and or municipal garbage. IIRC we even import garbage from eg Poland.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sat Jan 28th, 2012 at 05:30:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Black liquor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
New waste-to-energy methods to recover and utilize the energy in the black liquor have been developed. The use of black liquor gasification has the potential to achieve higher overall energy efficiency than the conventional recovery boiler while generating an energy-rich syngas from the liquor. The syngas can be burnt in a gas turbine combined cycle to produce electricity (usually called BLGCC for Black Liquor Gasification Combined Cycle; similar to IGCC) or converted through catalytic processes into chemicals or fuels such as methanol, dimethyl ether (DME), or F-T diesel (usually called BLGMF for Black Liquor Gasification for Motor Fuels). This gasification technology is currently under operation in a 3 MW pilot plant at Chemrec's[7] test facility in Piteå, Sweden. The DME synthesis step will be added in 2011 in the "BioDME" project, supported by the European Commission's Seventh Framework Programme (FP7) and the Swedish Energy Agency.[8]

This is a form of waste, though the paper mills has been using it for energy since the 30ies. However given the needs of liquid fuel for transport and the mills being stationary the paper industry is looking into new energy models. The paper mills often own energy companies to handle their needs and sell of their excess. Maybe paper will be a by-product of black liquor fuel industry down the road?

There is also Värmlandsmetanol in Värmland, though I don't know if they also go by way of Black liquor or if they plan to use some other chemistry.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Jan 28th, 2012 at 02:51:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Depends on what you grow. Salix - a type of willow is planted for energy in Sweden.

Willow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Energy: Willow is grown for biomass or biofuel, in energy forestry systems, as a consequence of its high energy in-energy out ratio, large carbon mitigation potential and fast growth.[12] Large scale projects to support willow as an energy crop are already at commercial scale in Sweden,[13] and in other countries, others are being developed through initiatives such as the Willow Biomass Project in the US and the Energy Coppice Project in the UK.[14] Willow may also be grown to produce Charcoal.

But I should add that I am not up to speed on the Salix-debate.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Jan 28th, 2012 at 03:03:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But I should add that I am not up to speed on the Salix-debate.

So you're Salixy-late?

by njh on Mon Jan 30th, 2012 at 12:24:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I give up. I don't get it.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Jan 30th, 2012 at 04:16:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Salicylate Toxicity
Salicylates are ubiquitous agents found in hundreds of over-the-counter (OTC) medications and in numerous prescription drugs, making salicylate toxicity an important cause of morbidity and mortality
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jan 30th, 2012 at 04:27:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
:)

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Jan 30th, 2012 at 04:41:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed, and the term does indeed come from willows - the active ingredient in willow bark is salicylic acid and was named for salix, the latin word for willow.  (acetylsalicylic acid is asprin)
by njh on Thu Feb 2nd, 2012 at 12:58:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, because coal was cheaper than coppice wood and not restricted to a fixed sustainable harvest.

Even if coal is not cheaper all up, the fixed sustainable harvest still applies, which suggests that the ideal role of coppice biocoal in a sustainable energy portfolio is as a readily storable firming energy source, with the main energy supply from harvesting volatile energy sources such as wind and solar, and the firming energy source allows it to function as baseload and scheduled load.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jan 29th, 2012 at 12:21:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Negawatts? Energy conservation? A reasonable number of humans?

Hate to nag, but ...?

Align culture with our nature. Ot else!

by ormondotvos (ormond.otvosnospamgmialcon) on Mon Jan 30th, 2012 at 08:07:51 PM EST
"Since the world is finite, there is a good chance that at some point we are going to have to get along with less electricity as well as less oil. Instead of focusing on delaying the inevitable,

perhaps we should start thinking about preparing people for simpler lives that use less energy of all types.

Such an approach might solve multiple problems at once-too much CO2, too little oil, and too little capital to tackle all the problems that need to be tackled at once."

Gail gets it. http://www.theoildrum.com/node/8806

Align culture with our nature. Ot else!

by ormondotvos (ormond.otvosnospamgmialcon) on Mon Jan 30th, 2012 at 08:24:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Overpopulation is a is a self-limiting problem. The only question is which of several possible population crash pathways we will experience.
by asdf on Wed Feb 1st, 2012 at 12:46:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Population control is either code for loathesome solutions, or a card tool in which the planet is already fully invested. The demograpic transition has hit the third world in full force, the number of places on the planet with significiantly above replacement fertility is small, and getting smaller fast. What more, exactly, do you want? Because other than small families, the only way to limit the future size of humanity is genocide. So, please, dont ever bring this up again. It tars the green movement with a brush the colour of blood.
by Thomas on Wed Feb 8th, 2012 at 09:54:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How about a global one-child-per-woman policy?

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 8th, 2012 at 10:04:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Requires a level of state control which is not only morally dubious, but also impossible in most places. China can enforce it because of the omnipresence and authoritarianism of the Chinese state aparatus, in the rest of the third world, it would just not work, and in the first world, it would get repealed in a single election cycle.  Most of what can be achived by moral and practical means in this area has been. There are minor exceptions - if you want to campaign to end abstinence only, I am not going to question your motives, but in general, people who bring up population control as an answer to resource crunches creep me the fuck out.
At best it means they are operating on a mental model of third world demograpics that is twenty, thirty years out of date, and the options go downhill very far and very rapidly thereafter.
by Thomas on Wed Feb 8th, 2012 at 10:56:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 8th, 2012 at 03:22:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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