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Hobet Mine Shutdown, a Photo Diary

by Mentatmark Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 02:15:53 AM EST

Update [2012-8-16 13:11:20 by Mentatmark]:FIXED!!!?

Update [2012-8-15 13:13:22 by Mentatmark]:I have discovered the problem with the photos, and will fix it when I get back from work in about 11 hours.

I was invited to photograph the protest and shutdown of the Hobet Mine in Boone and Lincoln Counties in West Virginia last week. The organizers knew me from my participation in the Blair Mountain March last year. This is the biggest mountaintop removal mine in the US, I am told. I was not aware of the location selected until we got there.

front-paged by afew - bumped, photos now visible again


This protest was to shut down a mine somewhere in West Virginia, the location of which was unannounced. There were two ways to participate, by coming to a training the day of the protest at the Kanawha State Forest and then meeting up with the rest of the protesters, those that had been at the base camp the previous few days, or by training at that base camp and then leaving in the morning to go to the State Forest to then meet up with the single day group.

I was with the group at the base camp. The morning at camp started with the few that were going to the State Park to give the trainings in non violent protest methods. They left a couple of hours before the rest of us left. We were to hit the mine site around the same time the newly trained protesters did.

Just before 10:00 am, we took off to go to the mine to meet the other protesters. We snaked out on a 6 mile long dirt road to the pavement. Where the road we were on comes out was a stop sign and a gas station. The convoy out was reported by a person at the gas station.

Click on an image for a larger version, all photos are covered by the Creative Commons copyright, Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike CC BY-NC-SA

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That was the start of what ended up being a three hour drive to the as yet undisclosed location. I took a few photos on the way.

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I was in one of the last cars in the convoy, and so was one of the last to see that the other protesters were not there. I later realized, when the others never showed up, that they were a diversion to tie up both the Police and counter protesters at the State Forest, a couple of hours drive away. It worked very well, we were there uninterrupted for quite a while.

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The first of the protesters I came upon was a group readying for a tree sitting. The road leading to them had been blocked by some of the protesters with a couple of obstacles found nearby to slow the response going farther up the hill.

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As I went up the hill, I saw a stream substitute. GWB changed a word or two in the laws governing reclamation to allow soil, streams ground cover and god only knows what else be replaced with substitutes. This is an example of a stream substitute:

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As I went farther into the mine site, the scope of the destruction became greater in scale.

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The first piece of equipment the protesters occupied was a rock hauler. A giant stop sign was brought in and deployed, to enable the operators of these gigantic pieces of equipment to see them.

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Once stopped, the protesters had a crew ready with banners and locking devices to board the rock hauler.

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The banner drop was cause for jubilation.

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While this was happening, a line of protesters were down the hill to slow any attempts to stop the protest from continuing. Once the equipment was secured, the line moved uphill to use the rock hauler as part of the blockade. By this time, a number of protesters had locked themselves to the rock hauler.

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Another rock hauler is high above on a man made hill with ground cover substitute adding some greenery. Just up the road is more equipment and a lot of miners. They did not seem happy for the tree hugger (their term for the protesters) induced break.

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On a distant denuded ridge, the destruction continued.

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Once that rock hauler was secured the remaining protesters continued up hill. There was a lot more equipment there, and more angry miners.

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Again, as I went farther into the mine, the vast scale of destruction became more staggering.

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Even these gigantic rock haulers become dwarfed in this desolation.

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And more "reclaimed" land...

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While in the distance, a Bucyrus Erie dragline is hard at work, tearing open the Earth. Seen is the tip of the 300 foot long boom in the first two photos, the third is the pit the dragline is in.

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That was as far as I went into the maw of the monster. The few protesters still ahead of me turned around and returned to equipment they had already passed. I followed. Shown is Dustin Steele and two others, locked to another piece of equipment. Dustin was later reported to have been brutalized by Law Enforcement.

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Then it started to get crowded, both by employees of the mine and the Police.

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Those of us not wishing to be arrested left when told to. The walk down was a study in the rape of the earth.

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Eventually, I made it down to the location where the tree sitter had been preparing a climb.

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Some of the miners were watching the Police deal with the tree sitter's ground crew.

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The tree sitter had done his banner drop while I was higher up in the mine.

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When I got to the base of the tree, the ground crew of the tree sitter were cuffed and in the Police car.

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The hills were alive with the sound of Police cars and the loud trucks and four wheelers of the Friends of Coal. They are the group that would counter protest while the protesters walked an eight mile gantlet of miners, families, four wheelers and pickup trucks intent on keeping us from making headway back up the now "closed" (seemingly to only our vehicles) public road. The drive back after the pickup was also contested by blockades and dangerous high speed maneuvers by those same counter protesters.

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The ubiquitous helicopter following the march out.

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Twenty of the protesters were arrested, charged with trespassing, and held on $25,000 bond, only able to be secured with property in West Virginia, cash or bail bond not acceptable. As I write this, about half are still in jail.

The protesters made it back to camp that night, tired, sore, scared, and ecstatic. And with a lot of experience of how intimidating it can be to be the enemies of both most of the locals and Law Enforcement, and how to get through that sort of challenge with heads held high. As high as the mountains they love.

  All photos in this diary are mine. Some have since been used without attribution. More of my photos of this event are here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mentatmark/sets/72157630844833644/

A friend of mine, Flux Rostrum made this video of the protest:

http://youtu.be/eXjULw5FXQ0

I must admit (full disclosure) that the red Jeep Liberty in the video (with the FDL Occupy Supply sticker on the window) is mine and the woman being interviewed about being pepper sprayed by a counter protester is my girl friend. She drove my Jeep with four passengers, all media, to the site. All the stills used in the video from the mine site are those I took.

And Jordan Freeman, another friend, made this one of the walk and drive back:

http://youtu.be/tIVZT8epbpE

Display:

Now where have we heard that "argument" before?

Great diary, mentatmark, thanks!

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 03:21:40 AM EST
Thanks afew, for both the comment and for FPing my story.
by Mentatmark (mentatmark at gmail dot com) on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 08:29:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Restore our mountains, re-employ our miners." Hmmm.

One small technical problem is that if you take a mountain made up of essentially solid rock, and then grind it up to get the coal out, then pile up the remaining gravel to make it look like a mountain, you don't actually end up with a mountain, regardless of how much it looks like one. What you have is a pile of gravel which will, in a relatively short time, wash into the surrounding valleys. The "remediation" efforts are pathetic in geological terms...

by asdf on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 11:59:08 AM EST
All too true, asdf. These destroyed mountains will never be mountains again until well after mankind is extinct. However, they have the skills needed to populate the hills and mountains with windfarms and build pumped hydroelectric there.

Some of those on the protest feel that underground mining is the solution, some that coal itself is the problem. But to get an idea of what people in West Virginia are being told about that, this billboard in Beckley WV says it all:

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This was enough to make me head explode, and it would have, had I not been wearing my anti-cognitive dissonance helmet.

by Mentatmark (mentatmark at gmail dot com) on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 12:30:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, see this comment thread from the Saturday/Sunday open thread relating to reemploying miners I started:

http://www.eurotrib.com/comments/2012/8/4/11559/92885/20?

by Mentatmark (mentatmark at gmail dot com) on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 12:37:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll attempt to paste in the comments in that thread, though it won't be perfect :)
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 05:39:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hack job, but there it is.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 07:45:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One more to go :-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 08:02:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Done!
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 10:02:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]



I was involved in a protest at a mountaintop removal strip mine in West Virginia, USA last week. I was besieged by questions from those who are "Friends of Coal" about jobs and electricity sources should we get our way. I had a few answers, but one I later came up with as an alternative needs some input from those here with the knowledge and skill set to help me understand if this might work.

My idea is to generate electricity with wind farms, supplemented by hydroelectric, as I understand is done in Germany and Switzerland. In West Virginia, there is a lot of potential for wind farms on mountain and hilltops. But, as I was constantly reminded by the Friends of Coal, wind is not consistent. I had read an article somewhere about Germany working with the Swiss to solve this problem by pumping water with the excess energy of peak output of wind to dams high in the Alps to be used to generate hydroelectric power when the wind is not enough.

If the workers were building access roads, turbine sites, reservoirs for captured runoff and pumped water, and hydroelectric generators, then they would remain employed, the mountains would remain relatively unspoiled, and a consistent source of energy would be available.

Does this sound like a reasonable idea worth pursuing? If West Virginia has one resource in abundance, it is steep hills and mountains.

And I include a photo for eye candy for those that are activists here, Dustin Steele and others locking themselves to a piece of equipment I took at the Hobet Mine:

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The rest of the photos I posted of this occupation of the largest mountaintop removal mine site in the USA are here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mentatmark/sets/72157630844833644/


by Mentatmark (mentatmark at gmail dot com) on Sun Aug 5th, 2012 at 07:11:59 PM BST
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 05:40:16 AM EST


I haven't read of a programmatic Swiss-German cooperation yet, but I am sceptical. Most of the wind power installed in Germany is in the north, and the north-south power lines are at the capacity limit during high wind. There is, however, a well-known wind-hydro cooperation between Denmark on one hand and Sweden and Norway on the other hand.

Now, "consistent" when applied to wind power is a weasel word that obfuscates multiple concepts, so let me give some arguments:


  1. Wind power output fluctuates due to changing weather (intermittency). But normal basload (nuclear, partly coal) fluctuates, too: shutdowns for refuelling, maintenance, or accidents and incidents. But does it matter? No, other things matter.
  2. One thing that matters is reliability: success in delivering the power you promise. This is not the same as intermittency: it concerns only the unforeseen part of it. For conventional baseload, reliability depends on the number and duration of accidents and incidents. For wind power, this largely depends on the difference between predicted and actual power output. There is such a thing as weather forecast, after all. You can check and compare actual forecasts and power outputs for wind and solar in Germany on the tracking page of the European Energy Exchange, here.
  3. Another thing that matters is meeting demand. None of the baseload plants, nor wind and solar, are capable of meeting demand on their own. Conventional baseload plants give a constant power most of the time, whereas demand has daily, weekly and annual fluctuations; and their shutdowns, due to their sizes, call for quick replacement on a large magnitude. Wind and solar (when those feeding into the same grid are taken together) show slower and more continuous fluctuations, but not by the same curve as demand. So, on their own, all of these need backup from variable power (usually hydro and gas, but also oil and some coal). For example, France manages to have a high share for nuclear by exporting a variable part of it, in effect using Italian and Spanish theermal power plants for balancing.
  4. Note that if you put wind and solar together, there is a greater correlation with demand: often the wind blows heavier when the Sun is obscured, wind is strongest sometime between fall and spring while solar in the summer, and solar's midday peak and terminator winds mean that there is some mapping to the daily power demand curve, too.
  5. Improving the grid (which is advisable anyway) can enable the export of wind power from regions under a storm front to ones with no wind, thus the random part of the variability can be reduced over a larger area.

With all that said, a 100% renewables or even a 40% renewables supplied USA would probably require major efforts to adapt and prop up balancing capacity. However, the situation with wind in the power mix is not fundamentally different from one with coal and nuclear as baseload, and, as Crazy Horse said, even 20% wind is still far away today.


Lunatic, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo  on Sun Aug 5th, 2012 at 10:43:54 PM BST
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 07:31:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]


You don't need alpine heights for pumped hydro. There is a 120 MW plant in Geesthacht near Hamburg which uses a height of 83m.

Nowadays one would build the "lake" less ugly, but it would need even more room then. That's the main problem with pumped hydro: it uses an awful lot of landscape.


by Katrin  on Sun Aug 5th, 2012 at 11:30:45 PM BST
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 07:33:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]


At a meeting in June i saw plans for a new development of hybrid concrete-steel towers designed to get 115m diameter turbines above the forest canopy. The towers are self-erecting, as the crane attaches to the highest concrete section to lift the steel sections.

In one version, the tower bottoms were used to store pumped storage water. It was claimed there are over 200 locations in Bayern alone with already built water storage and enough head to make the deal financeable.


"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin


by Crazy Horse  on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 08:38:23 AM BST
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 07:35:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Wow, sounds like an interesting idea, though I wonder about the capacity. Diary!


Lunatic, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo  on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 09:06:52 AM BST
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 07:37:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 07:39:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]


So capacity is around 5 hour 50 minutes at maximum power. Better than I expected.

I think this is really worth a diary, even if an LQD.


Lunatic, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.


by DoDo  on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 09:39:52 AM BST
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 07:40:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
However, the greater the elevation difference, the more power stored per tonne of water, so with a 500m elevation, that could be 1/6 the size.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 12:20:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the more power energy stored per tonne
by asdf on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 12:31:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, the more (noun) 1. ability to do something or act in a particular way, esp. as a faculty or quality stored, per tonne.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 12:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This place is full of physicists and chemists, yer not going to get away with it...
by asdf on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 12:40:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, if you can't be precise when precision is so well defined you can't blame people for playing definition games in political topics.
by njh on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 12:45:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"It" being speaking in ordinary English rather than in technical terms?

Yes, you are right, if a sufficient number of the physicists and chemists are unable to shift gears between the use of technical terms and ordinary language, it becomes impossible to "get away" with using ordinary language because doing so generates a steady stream of pointless quibbling.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 01:03:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, don't blame us physicists, it was that there engineer that dun it.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 02:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yer looking at how I make my living, not my CV or my mindset. But yeah, words have no meaning.
by asdf on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 02:22:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Words have many meanings. You have a clash of frames with an economist.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 02:34:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But in a discussion on a technical subject...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 02:49:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Its simply the habitual professional boundary-defense mechanism in which those not using the technical terminology are treated as being of lower status than those using the technical terminology.

Even in a case like this one where its clear that the comment is in ordinary English and there is nothing substantial lost in translation, given that the reason that it is five times the energy stored is because it is five times the power at the generator per cubic foot.

When we get OCD about it, we exclude members of the public who have not been indoctrinated into the particular profession in question. Which is a challenge in facing the climate crisis.

But in reality I didn't mock asdf for being OCD about it as a populist stand, I mocked him because it was such a stereotypically geeky comment.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Aug 20th, 2012 at 07:48:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
those not using the technical terminology are treated as being of lower status than those using the technical terminology.

From my and by every appearance asdf's viewpoint, you were using bad terminology, and it didn't occur to us that any other terminology could be used in a technical note (and I still don't get how "ordinary English" comes into the picture, but then English is not my first language). I think you read way too much into a one-liner nitpick.

there is nothing substantial lost in translation

Yes, this wasn't the case of journalists confusing kW and (annual) kWh for a wind farm. The reaction was just a nitpick (possibly conditioned by dozens of cases of said journalistic confusion).

it is five times the energy stored is because it is five times the power at the generator per cubic foot.

If water is pumped up and then passed through the generator at the same rate, yes.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Aug 20th, 2012 at 11:08:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thinking about a parallel in economics, I came up with wealth and product. It is common to talk about per capita GDP as if it were a measure of richness, but it isn't. In most cases, nitpicking such language wouldn't change the argument, but it may cloud vision when the difference does count (and I was made aware of this here on ET).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Aug 20th, 2012 at 11:14:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Stock and flow!
Definitions

To understand the difference between a stock and a flow think of a bath-tub. The water in the bath is a stock - it is measured at a point in time. The water that comes into the bath (via the taps) and/or out of the bath (via the sink) are flows and you measure them as a rate of water flow per unit of time. So many litres per minute.

If the inflows are stronger than the outflows the water level in the bath will rise and vice-versa. In other words, flows add to and subtract from stocks.

In economics, this distinction is very important and most students fail to really understand it. I think that is because mainstream macroeconomics then doesn't go onto to use the distinction properly, especially in the area of fiscal relations.

So the level of bank reserves is a stock - measured at some point each day. Government spending and taxation, consumer spending, saving, investment, exports, imports, etc are all flows of dollars per unit of time. Government spending adds to bank reserves and taxation reduces (drains) the stock of reserves.

Clearly, a theory of the economy that doesn't recognise the intrinsic relations between the flows and stocks is missing the boat. Given that modern monetary theory is ground out of the operational accounting of the monetary system, its stock-flow consistency is impeccable and unique (a major strength).

(from Bill Mitchell)

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 20th, 2012 at 11:21:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just in case it is not clear:

Force is how hard you push on something.

Power is force * velocity, measured in Watts (or horsepower, in certain benighted countries). It is an instantaneous measure. You are putting 100 Watts of electrical power into the bulb at a given point in time. Your windmill is putting out 200 MegaWatts of electrical power at a given point in time. Your car engine is putting out 100 Horsepower (about 75 kW) of power at a given point in time.

Energy is power * time. It's a cumulative measure; you are putting 100 Watts of power into the bulb for 2 hours, so you used 200 Watt hours of energy. Your windmill runs for 4 hours, so you generated 800 MWh of energy. You drove for 1 hour, so your car engine produced 75 kWh of energy.

What you store in a pumped water storage system is energy.

by asdf on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 12:52:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Energy is the ability to do work. And "ability" is synonimous with "power" in ordinary speech...

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 12:57:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's not get me started about "dimension" in ordinary speech...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 02:38:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or how "infinite" is used about very large but finite numbers.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 02:41:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Language as a hindrance to communication.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 02:43:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or 'grows exponentially' meaning 'grows more than a little bit'; often with only two samples.
by njh on Sat Aug 18th, 2012 at 01:53:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, and that is what is multiplied when you increase the incremental elevation ~ how hard the water pushes on something.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 12:59:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not worth arguing about, I suppose, but: What you store in a system is energy, not power. If it's a higher head, you store more potential energy for a given mass. The stored energy is m*g*h, measured in Joules.

If you want to mix in "power" where it has no relevance, that's fine, but it distracts readers from the point of the conversation, as shown here. We could also talk about the color of the windmill, for example, which is equally relevant.

by asdf on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 01:30:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The ordinary English meaning of the word "power" is not identical to the technical term. As far as distracting readers from the point of the conversation, you were the one that elected to quibble: you had the option to instead focus on the point that was being raised rather than the horrendous sin of talking about it in ordinary language.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 01:41:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL. That's a nice sub-thread.

We can't pump the water higher than 83 m, because the glaciers in the ice age didn't bring higher heaps of sand than that. A cooperation of southern Germany and Switzerland doesn't make much sense either, because all these pipes would be ugly, and a reservoir on each summit would be  taking things a bit too far, I guess. No matter where you try, you will always have only very limited opportunities to build pumped hydro. We will need many more methods to store energy, combined with methods to steer demand.  

by Katrin on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 03:04:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In West Virginia, the pumped hydro could be a means to also filter contaminated groundwater pumped up to wetlands that would filter the water as it then flowed to the reservoir or pond on each hill that has a turbine. There are a lot of hills and mountains in this part of the country.

A system that delivers energy (turbine), stores excess energy for late use (a gravity battery), filters groundwater (wetlands at every reservoir) and creates ponds and small lakes as a habitat for various wildlife to use, all while putting former strip mine workers to work could be a good way to address multiple problems with one solution.

What do y'all think?

by Mentatmark (mentatmark at gmail dot com) on Sat Aug 18th, 2012 at 12:49:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pumped water systems are not generally very good for the ecology of the reservoir, because the water level goes up and down daily. If the wetlands were just a filter, with a relatively constant flow rate, that could be ok. But the reservoir itself is mechanical system.

If you can use the towers of a wind farm as water towers, that could be a good thing. I suppose there are some unintended consequences that will come out over time...

by asdf on Sat Aug 18th, 2012 at 07:27:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In my minds eye, I see the wetlands as the filter, with the constant flow trough the wetlands going to a reservoir that would vary in volume. The hollow turbine towers could be that reservoir, but would require a second pumping operation to take the wetland drainage up into the tower. Depending on the geology, those reservoirs could be a dam or a quarry-like pit perhaps. Or something else.
by Mentatmark (mentatmark at gmail dot com) on Sun Aug 19th, 2012 at 01:14:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So convenient if the hilltops are gone anyway... Oops!
by Katrin on Sun Aug 19th, 2012 at 03:53:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]


No need to go to Germany to find out how pumped hydro works. Just take a trip to the border to Virginia.

Bath County Pumped Storage Station - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Bath County Pumped Storage Station is a pumped storage hydroelectric power plant with a generation capacity of 3,003 MW [1] The station is located in the northern corner of Bath County, Virginia, on the southeast side of the Eastern Continental Divide, which forms this section of the border between Virginia and West Virginia. The station consists of two reservoirs separated by about 1,260 feet (380 m) in elevation.

It cost $1.6 billion,[2] and was constructed with 2,100 megawatts (MW) capacity.[3] In 2004 upgrades started, increasing power generation to 510MW and pumping power to 480MW per turbine.[4] Bath County Station is jointly owned by Dominion Generation (60%) and the Allegheny Power System (40%), and managed by Dominion. It went into operation in 1985 and is still the largest-capacity pumped-storage power station in the world.[5]




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by A swedish kind of death  on Sun Aug 5th, 2012 at 11:53:02 PM BST
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 07:43:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I found the likely source of what you heard bout a Swiss-German wind-hydro cooperation: a Swiss parliamentary study (sorry link in German) on what to replace nuclear capacity with (Switzerland exits nuclear power, too). The study from this April argues that Switzerland is not well suited for wind power due to siting restrictions, but the rest of Europe has more than enough potential while Switzerland has hydro potential, so it would be best for Switzerland to 'serve' its neighbours with balancing power.

The article says that currently, Switzerland has 13.3 GW in hydro capacity, of which 1.7 GW is pumped hydro; and the study predicts the addition of 6 GW of power production capacity and 4 GW of pumped hydro capacity.


Lunatic, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.


by DoDo  on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 12:25:17 PM BST
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 07:44:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]


I found the likely source of what you heard bout a Swiss-German wind-hydro cooperation: a Swiss parliamentary study (sorry link in German) on what to replace nuclear capacity with (Switzerland exits nuclear power, too). The study from this April argues that Switzerland is not well suited for wind power due to siting restrictions, but the rest of Europe has more than enough potential while Switzerland has hydro potential, so it would be best for Switzerland to 'serve' its neighbours with balancing power.

The article says that currently, Switzerland has 13.3 GW in hydro capacity, of which 1.7 GW is pumped hydro; and the study predicts the addition of 6 GW of power production capacity and 4 GW of pumped hydro capacity.


Lunatic, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.


by DoDo  on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 12:25:17 PM BST
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 10:02:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]



First, thanks for standing up to MTR and big coal, and hello to old buddy Roselle.

then you tell big coal they don't have to worry about backup for wind in amurka. existing plant provides all the backup necessary for a decade or more. It will take some 6X the current wind installations, roughly 300,000MW, to reach 20% of demand. By the time that figure is reached, all the aspects of sustainable generation and a smart grid will be in place.

Wind does not need to be backed up, because it is not the sole generating source.

Pumped hydro, especially for existing dams, will certainly be part of the mix.

the backup argument is a straw dog used by the conventional poison industry to obfuscate the viability of renewable resources. The real problem is the lack of wisdom of the amurkan people, who truly can't see straight.


"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin


by Crazy Horse  on Sun Aug 5th, 2012 at 08:43:12 PM BST
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 07:20:21 AM EST



Expert commentary please on guyed towers for offshore wind?

Cables and composites create lean offshore | Windpower Monthly

Achieving 150GW of offshore wind round Europe by 2030 would require installation of four 6MW wind turbines every day. At that number in the middle of the North Sea you need to be able to arrive, install, connect and go quickly, using highly automated machinery controlled remotely.

Lean design uses shape, not brute force or weight. French company Vergnet manufactures 1MW wind turbines with guyed towers, for installation on land in remote locations with difficult access. This halves the amount of material in the tower and foundations and improves efficiency and installation.

As wind turbines move offshore, the turbine and nacelle remain essentially unchanged but, as the water depth increases, the weight of conventional towers and foundations can easily be double what they would have been on land - and installation becomes much harder.

For a guyed tower design, as the water deepens the geometry extends, but the components essentially stay the same and the weight does not significantly increase. Putting down the tower with a central pad "foot" for it to stand on, installing three screw anchors and attaching the guy cables is straightforward.




It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen  on Mon Aug 6th, 2012 at 09:56:16 AM BST
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 07:22:42 AM EST



but no expert, or mildly knowledgeable, or even speculative, commentary?


It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen  on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 09:34:19 AM BST
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 07:25:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

An answer in the last category: guyed cables and a weaker tower mean a lot more vibration modes, so I'd expect some complications.


  • What about the higher bending modes of the weaker tower for large turbines? I suspect that you'd need cables at multiple heights to stabilize against that.


  • What about cable maintenance? In comparison to radio towers, I would expect a higher strain on the cables due to all the turbine vibrations and the nacelle mass. A cable in the sea, even more so.


  • What about cables and access by sevice ships?


  • Cables would also increase noise and bird deaths, but I'm not sure by how much.



Lunatic, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.


by DoDo  on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 01:30:04 PM BST
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 7th, 2012 at 10:25:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The pictures aren't working for me. Is this a Flicker outage, or have they been taken down for some reason?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Aug 9th, 2012 at 06:02:51 PM EST
I see them now, so either outage or some bandwidth issue.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Aug 9th, 2012 at 06:56:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are Flickr "not available" signs up for me at the moment.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Aug 10th, 2012 at 12:05:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
However, the set is visible on Flickr.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Aug 10th, 2012 at 12:07:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am the copyright owner, and I put them there, so if they have been taken down, it was not at my request. If anyone knows what the problem might be, I would love some feedback.

Thanks,
Mark

by Mentatmark (mentatmark at gmail dot com) on Mon Aug 13th, 2012 at 03:00:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can see them and have had no problems (great photos btw).

Googling for '"can't see" flickr photos' gives over 2 million results so I would bet that it is not a problem limited to this site or the users who are having problems, but rather something wrong with Flickr.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Aug 13th, 2012 at 04:07:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is some discussion on the Open Thread.

But no solution yet.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Aug 13th, 2012 at 07:45:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I finished redoing it.

Thanks
Mark

by Mentatmark (mentatmark at gmail dot com) on Thu Aug 16th, 2012 at 01:14:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've bumped the diary so it can be seen again.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 02:18:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The photos inside comments can't be updated, unfortunately. Comments can't be edited.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 02:28:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The pipeline that carries slurry at high pressure from Peru's most productive mine 188 miles (302 kilometers) to its desert coast had sprung a leak at a pumping station in this village of poor farmers. It was 9:15 a.m..  In the next days, about 350 villagers would be treated for headaches, respiratory tract bleeding, nausea and vomiting, according to the mayor's office. At least 69 were children.

Fab diary, by the way...

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Fri Aug 17th, 2012 at 09:01:22 AM EST
Thank you for the compliment, maracatu.
by Mentatmark (mentatmark at gmail dot com) on Mon Aug 20th, 2012 at 01:06:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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