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Brexit has broken the UK's democracy

by IdiotSavant Fri Oct 25th, 2019 at 12:20:13 AM EST

The fundamental rule of democracy is that we settle issues by voting (and if you don't get your way, you just keep pushing for another vote). But thanks to Brexit, a large majority of the UK population is now willing to accept political violence:

Voters on both sides of the Brexit divide believe that violence against MPs and members of the public is a "price worth paying" to secure their favoured outcome, a new study has found.

A majority of both Leave and Remain voters would be happy to accept attacks on politicians and violent protests in which members of the public are badly injured if it meant they got Brexit outcome they want, according to a new polls.

Researchers said they were "genuinely shocked" by the findings, which come amid concerns about threats against MPs.

71% of English Leave voters and 58% of Remainers think violence against MPs is now acceptable. They've already had one MP murdered over this, and you'd think that would be a red light. Instead, it seems to have incited public bloodlust. Meanwhile, 69% of Leavers and 59% of Remainers think injuring members of the public is a worthwhile price to pay (it is unclear if they asked the natural followup of "what about a member of your family?")

This is not a sign of a healthy democracy. Instead, it is a sign of own spiralling down into violence and authoritarianism. And no matter which way Brexit goes - and does anybody outside the UK even really care anymore? - the damage to the political system is going to last a long, long time.

So this is what its coming to... Frontpaged - Frank Schnittger

Not that I think that democracy was very good to begin with - first past the post, FFS! - but at least it wasn't settling things by murder.
by IdiotSavant on Fri Oct 25th, 2019 at 12:21:09 AM EST
The trend seems to me to express anti-government sentiment. I'm uncertain then how to construe this popular response to voter suppression (IndyRef1, Ref1, GE1, GE2 or Ref2 bills forthcoming) as "authoritarianism," at least without reference to Russian interference in democratic processes.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Fri Oct 25th, 2019 at 01:12:00 AM EST
Boris and co. are expert at deflecting "anti-government sentiment" onto the EU, immigrants, the Irish, Parliament, the Courts or any other convenient bogeyman that comes to mind, and then washing their hands of all responsibility when that doesn't end too well.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Oct 26th, 2019 at 01:49:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What I find fascinating is the fact the UK has a long history of sabotaging and undermining the Labour movement, usually be claiming that the party was infiltrated by hostile foreign powers - and now that we have a government that's effectively a rather mad puppet of hostile foreign powers, the security services and the media are still frantically smearing Corbyn as if he's an unholy mash-up of Lenin, Che Guevara, Pol Pot, Wat Tyler, and Ronnie Corbett.

Meanwhile the Prime Minister has humiliated the Queen by forcing a pointless Queen's Speech, used inflammatory rhetoric to try to bully the courts, ignored legitimate and lawful demands that he explain some of his previous actions, handed out £100m of taxpayer money to a US PR outfit run by a US private equity fund to promote Brexit, and made British politics look like a panto run by idiots and amateurs.

Harold Wilson was on the wrong side of two coup plots we know about, and possibly one we don't.

What exactly does an old Etonian have to do to attract the same attention from the security services and the Establishment? Does the fact that he's One of Us really mean he can do absolutely anything, and no action will be taken?

Or is this what it appears to be - a rather inept coup attempt of its own, to end the appearance of representative democracy we've all be used to, and replace it with historically approved aristocratic neo-feudalism?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Oct 26th, 2019 at 03:40:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What exactly does an old Etonian have to do to attract the same attention from the security services and the Establishment? Does the fact that he's One of Us really mean he can do absolutely anything, and no action will be taken?

History says yes.

by IdiotSavant on Sat Oct 26th, 2019 at 10:32:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

** Democracy is not well understood.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sat Oct 26th, 2019 at 11:00:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
MPs plan to defy Boris Johnson by forcing Brexit votes, 25 Oct
Under the plans, which have been worked on since the summer by supporters of a second referendum and soft Brexit, MPs would again try to use procedure under standing order 24 to take control of the timetable in parliament.
Standing Orders of the House of Commons - Public Business 2012 , search "24", select
General debates - 24. Emergency debates
They would then attempt to introduce either Johnson's Brexit deal or Theresa May's withdrawal agreement, with possible votes on adding a customs union, second referendum and extending transition to prevent departure on World Trade Organization terms.
One agreed WA, two different IE-NI Protocols, and GFA-which-cannot-be-named wheel
Dominic Grieve, the former Tory who has led the battle against no-deal Brexit, said MPs bringing back the withdrawal bill with the aim of attaching a second referendum was "within the field of options", but any attempt by backbenchers to bring in primary legislation would be full of procedural hurdles.
Henry VIII clauses in EUWA2018 and EUWA2019
Keith Simpson, Conservative MP for Broadland, described the "floundering in No 10 as worthy of Baldrick in Blackadder The Thick of It", adding: "The problem is that circumstances beyond [Johnson's] control and things he has done has made 31 October almost impossible and I think what he's decided to do - supported by most, but not all of the cabinet - of trying to have a vote on a general election looks as though it's part of the people versus parliament but I think it's quite a risky strategy."
-------Recap 19-25 Oct "democracy":
Letwin amendment to PM motion for approval of the agreement, passes 322-306 19 Oct
add "this House has considered the matter but withholds approval unless and until implementing legislation is passed."
no such condition for tabling the agreement [WA] or decision by HoC compelling A.50(3) extension period request in the "Benn act" (EU (Withdrawal)(No. 2) Act 2019)
(3)If neither of the conditions in subsection (1) or subsection (2) is satisfied, subsection (4) must be complied with no later than 19 October 2019.
gov publishes UK "implementing legislation," EU (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill , 21-22 Oct

Key vote on Brexit deal debate fails in Parliament, 22 Oct
1st reading of bill for debate passes, 329 votes-299
gov "programme motion" fails, 308-322, without alternative tabled by any Minister of the Crown

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sat Oct 26th, 2019 at 02:42:47 AM EST
So whatever happened to the famous, if apocryphal, British stiff upper lip and phlegmatic and pragmatic muddling through by moderating voices?

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Oct 26th, 2019 at 01:28:19 PM EST
What do you call this current state of affairs if not "muddling through?"
by asdf on Sat Oct 26th, 2019 at 02:51:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Looks like pure muddling without any through to me.
by generic on Sat Oct 26th, 2019 at 02:55:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Patience is required: muddling takes quite some time. Up to now the discussion has only been about the leadup to the exit. After the exit is concluded, the further negotiations might continue for twenty more years. Or, if the exit is not concluded in this round of muddling, there will be further muddling leading to another withdrawal application.
by asdf on Sat Oct 26th, 2019 at 03:03:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
democracy eh? We're gonna miss it when it's gone.

tbh I don't believe that poll. It's too much of a set up. the Tories have been unsubtly encouraging stochastic terrorism for years and this looks like a permissioning push poll to me.

I'm not saying there aren't people in this country who woudn't relish the opportunity to exercise a bit of mayhem in pursuit of their political goals, but we're not an armed populace and we've never entertained the US fantasy of second amendment remedies to our political woes. So, really we're talking about marauding bands of hooligans wandering the streets looking for people to beat up.

Well, we've been here before and, whatever the Establishment prefer, working people win out.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Oct 27th, 2019 at 08:58:17 PM EST
It's a shit poll, badly reported.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Oct 27th, 2019 at 10:53:44 PM EST
Yup. Links for the polls can here and what they have done is given a question on the form (paraphrasing to shorten):
Some has suggested that leaving/remaining will result in X
Do you
  • Want X to happen anyway
  • Think it is a risk worth taking
  • Don't think it is worth the risk

And lo and behold, most stuck to their position. The violence questions where (at least in the English part, didn't read Scotland and Wales) the ones with least support, but still most stuck to their position.

7% wants violence to MPs anyway, and 5% or 7% wants violence to harm the public. Or not, considering that this is Yougov, where you can be as many persons as you have email addresses.

by fjallstrom on Sun Oct 27th, 2019 at 11:53:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Most important is the leading language in the questions. Every time: "worth it to take back control". A major Leave slogan and totally meaningless.

So, if Brexit leads to an unravelling of the peace process in NI, or if Brexit leads to a breakaway Scotland, or there is violence in the streets, "it was worth it to take back control".

Newspeak says "Losing control is taking back control, taking back control is losing control".

YouGov is such a shitty outfit. And the academics who have lent their names to this should be ashamed.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing, nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Mon Oct 28th, 2019 at 09:37:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

WoS | Three days in politics, 12 Dec or 9 Dec "debate"

Fixed-terms Parliament Act of 2011

2 Early parliamentary general elections

(1)An early parliamentary general election is to take place if--

(a)the House of Commons passes a motion in the form set out in subsection (2), and

(b)if the motion is passed on a division, the number of members who vote in favour of the motion is a number equal to or greater than two thirds of the number of seats in the House (including vacant seats).

(2)The form of motion for the purposes of subsection (1)(a) is--

"That there shall be an early parliamentary general election."

PM may adopt Lib Dem-SNP plan to bypass Labour and call election by act or amendment

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Mon Oct 28th, 2019 at 12:27:50 AM EST
The Electoral Commission, "Dealing with doubtful ballot papers in GB, Supporting UK Parliamentary elections". 2017

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Mon Oct 28th, 2019 at 03:04:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Both the SNP and LibDems have reasons to support an early poll.

Early next year the trial of the ex-SNP leader Alex Salmond begins on charges of rape and sexual harrassment. This is widely expected  to cause major damage to the stanidng of the party and its senior representatives. So, an election before it begins is very much in their interests.

Equally, the LibDems probably realise thatnow represents the high point in their polling and it would be wise to capitalise on it. There have been a couple of potentially damaging mis-steps recently that may come to haunt them in the medium term. So, go and go now is their credo.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Oct 28th, 2019 at 12:54:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
under the radar: MEPs adopt plan to keep 2020 EU funding for UK in no-deal Brexit scenario, 22 Oct
It's officially in the budget one way or t'other. WA still expires 31 Dec 2020.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Mon Oct 28th, 2019 at 03:20:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe it's the pain of a big wrench thrown into a machine. Disastrous Stability: Brexit as a Constitutional Crisis - Holger Hestermeyer
... The first paradigm shift is a move from parliamentary to popular sovereignty. UK constitutional law considers Parliament, not the people, as sovereign. ...

The second paradigm shift threatens the traditional two-party system of the UK. ... On a variety of questions positions are not split along party lines, but divide the two parties. ...

The third paradigm shift concerns international treaties. ... government has to come to terms with the new role of Parliament, finding a way to include Parliament in treaty negotiations. ...

Also, the division among substates on how to handle the exit, the rise of English nationalism, etc.

Schengen is toast!
by epochepoque on Tue Oct 29th, 2019 at 01:56:24 AM EST

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